What annoys me today in marketing and media that too often today then talking on hi-fi, science is replaced by bizarre belief structures and marketing fluff, leading to a decades-long stagnation of the audiophile domain. Science makes progress, pseudo-science doesn’t. Hi-fi world is filled by pseudoscience, dogma and fruitloopery to the extent that it resembles a fundamentalist religion. Loudspeaker performance hasn’t tangibly improved in forty years and vast sums are spent addressing the wrong problems.
Business for Engineers: Marketers Lie article points tout that marketing tells lies — falsehoods — things that serve to convey a false impression. Marketing’s purpose is to determining how the product will be branded, positioned, and sold. It seems that there too many snake oil rubbish products marketed in the name of hifi. It is irritating to watch the stupid people in the world be fooled.
In EEVblog #29 – Audiophile Audiophoolery video David L. Jones (from EEVBlog) cuts loose on the Golden Ear Audiophiles and all their Audiophoolery snake oil rubbish. The information presented in Dave’s unique non-scripted overly enthusiastic style! He’s an enthusiastic chap, but couldn’t agree more with many of the opinions he expressed: Directional cables, thousand dollar IEC power cables, and all that rubbish. Monster Cable gets mostered. Note what he says right at the end: “If you pay ridiculous money for these cable you will hear a difference, but don’t expect your friends to”. If you want to believe, you will.
My points on hifi-nonsense:
One of the tenets of audiophile systems is that they are assembled from components, allegedly so that the user can “choose” the best combination. This is pretty largely a myth. The main advantage of component systems is that the dealer can sell ridiculously expensive cables, hand-knitted by Peruvian virgins and soaked in snake oil, to connect it all up. Say goodbye to the noughties: Yesterday’s hi-fi biz is BUSTED, bro article asks are the days of floorstanders and separates numbered? If traditional two-channel audio does have a future, then it could be as the preserve of high resolution audio. Sony has taken the industry lead in High-Res Audio.
HIFI Cable Humbug and Snake oil etc. blog posting rightly points out that there is too much emphasis placed on spending huge sums of money on HIFI cables. Most of what is written about this subject is complete tripe. HIFI magazines promote myths about the benefits of all sorts of equipment. I am as amazed as the writer that that so called audiophiles and HIFI journalists can be fooled into thinking that very expensive speaker cables etc. improve performance. I generally agree – most of this expensive interconnect cable stuff is just plain overpriced.
I can agree that in analogue interconnect cables there are few cases where better cables can really result in cleaner sound, but usually getting any noticeable difference needs that the one you compare with was very bad yo start with (clearly too thin speaker wires with resistance, interconnect that picks interference etc..) or the equipment in the systems are so that they are overly-sensitive to cable characteristics (generally bad equipment designs can make for example cable capacitance affect 100 times or more than it should). Definitely too much snake oil. Good solid engineering is all that is required (like keep LCR low, Teflon or other good insulation, shielding if required, proper gauge for application and the distance traveled). Geometry is a factor but not in the same sense these yahoos preach and deceive.
In digital interconnect cables story is different than on those analogue interconnect cables. Generally in digital interconnect cables the communication either works, does not work or sometimes work unreliably. The digital cable either gets the bits to the other end or not, it does not magically alter the sound that goes through the cable. You need to have active electronics like digital signal processor to change the tone of the audio signal traveling on the digital cable, cable will just not do that.
But this digital interconnect cables characteristics has not stopped hifi marketers to make very expensive cable products that are marketed with unbelievable claims. Ethernet has come to audio world, so there are hifi Ethernet cables. How about 500 dollar Ethernet cable? That’s ridiculous. And it’s only 1.5 meters. Then how about $10,000 audiophile ethernet cable? Bias your dielectrics with the Dielectric-Bias ethernet cable from AudioQuest: “When insulation is unbiased, it slows down parts of the signal differently, a big problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio.” I see this as complete marketing crap speak. It seems that they’re made for gullible idiots. No professional would EVER waste money on those cables. Audioquest even produces iPhone sync cables in similar price ranges.
HIFI Cable insulators/supports (expensive blocks that keep cables few centimeters off the floor) are a product category I don’t get. They typically claim to offer incredible performance as well as appealing appearance. Conventional cable isolation theory holds that optimal cable performance can be achieved by elevating cables from the floor in an attempt to control vibrations and manage static fields. Typical cable elevators are made from electrically insulating materials such as wood, glass, plastic or ceramics. Most of these products claim superior performance based upon the materials or methods of elevation. I don’t get those claims.
Along with green magic markers on CDs and audio bricks is another item called the wire conditioner. The claim is that unused wires do not sound the same as wires that have been used for a period of time. I don’t get this product category. And I don’t believe claims in the line like “Natural Quartz crystals along with proprietary materials cause a molecular restructuring of the media, which reduces stress, and significantly improves its mechanical, acoustic, electric, and optical characteristics.” All sounds like just pure marketing with no real benefits.
CD no evil, hear no evil. But the key thing about the CD was that it represented an obvious leap from earlier recording media that simply weren’t good enough for delivery of post-produced material to the consumer to one that was. Once you have made that leap, there is no requirement to go further. The 16 bits of CD were effectively extended to 18 bits by the development of noise shaping, which allows over 100dB signal to noise ratio. That falls a bit short of the 140dB maximum range of human hearing, but that has never been a real goal. If you improve the digital media, the sound quality limiting problem became the transducers; the headphones and the speakers.
We need to talk about SPEAKERS: Soz, ‘audiophiles’, only IT will break the sound barrier article says that today’s loudspeakers are nowhere near as good as they could be, due in no small measure to the presence of “traditional” audiophile products. that today’s loudspeakers are nowhere near as good as they could be, due in no small measure to the presence of “traditional” audiophile products. I can agree with this. Loudspeaker performance hasn’t tangibly improved in forty years and vast sums are spent addressing the wrong problems.
We need to talk about SPEAKERS: Soz, ‘audiophiles’, only IT will break the sound barrier article makes good points on design, DSPs and the debunking of traditional hi-fi. Science makes progress, pseudo-science doesn’t. Legacy loudspeakers are omni-directional at low frequencies, but as frequency rises, the radiation becomes more directional until at the highest frequencies the sound only emerges directly forwards. Thus to enjoy the full frequency range, the listener has to sit in the so-called sweet spot. As a result legacy loudspeakers with sweet spots need extensive room treatment to soak up the deficient off-axis sound. New tools that can change speaker system designs in the future are omni-directional speakers and DSP-based room correction. It’s a scenario ripe for “disruption”.
Computers have become an integrated part of many audio setups. Back in the day integrated audio solutions in PCs had trouble earning respect. Ode To Sound Blaster: Are Discrete Audio Cards Still Worth the Investment? posting tells that it’s been 25 years since the first Sound Blaster card was introduced (a pretty remarkable feat considering the diminished reliance on discrete audio in PCs) and many enthusiasts still consider a sound card an essential piece to the PC building puzzle. It seems that in general onboard sound is finally “Good Enough”, and has been “Good Enough” for a long time now. For most users it is hard to justify the high price of special sound card on PC anymore. There are still some PCs with bad sound hardware on motherboard and buttload of cheap USB adapters with very poor performance. However, what if you want the best sound possible, the lowest noise possible, and don’t really game or use the various audio enhancements? You just want a plain-vanilla sound card, but with the highest quality audio (products typically made for music makers). You can find some really good USB solutions that will blow on-board audio out of the water for about $100 or so.
Although solid-state technology overwhelmingly dominates today’s world of electronics, vacuum tubes are holding out in two small but vibrant areas. Some people like the sound of tubes. The Cool Sound of Tubes article says that a commercially viable number of people find that they prefer the sound produced by tubed equipment in three areas: musical-instrument (MI) amplifiers (mainly guitar amps), some processing devices used in recording studios, and a small but growing percentage of high-fidelity equipment at the high end of the audiophile market. Keep those filaments lit, Design your own Vacuum Tube Audio Equipment article claims that vacuum tubes do sound better than transistors (before you hate in the comments check out this scholarly article on the topic). The difficulty is cost; tube gear is very expensive because it uses lots of copper, iron, often point-to-point wired by hand, and requires a heavy metal chassis to support all of these parts. With this high cost and relative simplicity of circuitry (compared to modern electronics) comes good justification for building your own gear. Maybe this is one of the last frontiers of do-it-yourself that is actually worth doing.
1,887 Comments
Tomi Engdahl says:
Understanding Audio Cables & Connectors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV8rpGUoxns
Any musician or person working in sound must understand the various types of audio connectors and cables. The main ones are 1/4 inch, XLR, RCA, Speakon and even MIDI. They can be use to connect guitars, keyboards, microphones, speakers and more. Though it may seem daunting if you are new to sound or are a new musician, it is rather easy to understand audio instrument and speaker cables and connectors.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Do Audio Cables Affect Sound Quality? [ 4 different cables w/ Speaker Test]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md0FGdeOJv8
Video comments:
I can fixes all kind of headset and I have an experience about aux cable. The answer is,”Doing without perfect wiring will affect on sound quality
Good test! All sounded the same! Lol
Homemade cable sound a little muffle, IMO cable 2 (chinese cable) are the best one, treble sound clear and the bass sound more punchy than the rest. The material and how cable is made definitely have an impact to the sound.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Balanced vs. Unbalanced Cable – What’s the deal?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQtMFsw_3Hg
Why cant every explanation be clear, concise and use non technical jargon that any non expert can understand? Great video!
Tomi Engdahl says:
What’s the BEST Cable for YOUR SOUND?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbik6OW77rQ
Video comments:
Problem with only using capacitance is that capacitance reacts differently based on frequency. Impedance is the proper picture, or rather imp and cap, or cap and resistance. Resistance filters higher frequencies, capacitance filters lower frequencies. The Mogami has twice the capacitance from the previous two, yet has more low end. That’s why it’s not a complete picture.
I’m not sure that there’s anything in this video that disqualifies this statement. Nowhere do we say that capacitance is the only variable to consider.
Any test that isn’t double blind is a heavily flawed test. Don’t see why this couldn’t have been done double blind.
Very interesting video. Would there be a benefit to trying it double blind? I think it would interesting to try that too and see if you both agree. Personally, I really like Mogami platinum because they are solid cables and aren’t too expensice (this is subjective). But, you can walk into your nearest Guitar Center with no receipt and they will replace it –no questions asked.
All the links are in the description you can download the wavs and compare yourself
@Vertex Effects thanks for pointing that out, I should have seen that. Thank you!
Tomi Engdahl says:
When Does Cable Length Matter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9nqQuu4lmQ
What’s the truth about cable length? Do shorter cables always mean a better signal? Has digital technology made the question irrelevant, or is it still something you should think about?
Video comments:
I’m an electrical engineering junior and this video made me have to back up and take a look at some transmission line material. He is pretty accurate in all he said without making it too technical. Very nice! I wish I had more of an opportunity to learn these things from experience as opposed to through differential equations…
this video has very interesting and important information. thanks for uploading this video
Great video. I do fiber optic splicing and fusing occasionally at my job and it is very tedious work. The machine test for DB loss in the fuse. The worst I accept is a .02 DB loss.
It also matters with charging your phone. With an extension I got 500mA and with a shorter cable 900mA. In the end it will affect your charging time by around 20/30%. And some other cables i tested where between those numbers.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Cable Distortion and Dielectric Biasing Debunked
https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cable-distortion-and-dielectric-biasing-debunked
Recently I’ve done a collection of measurements and tests on interconnect cables to see what I could find that would explain the sonic differences that many people, including myself, have grown accustomed to hearing. The test equipment was an Audio Precision System 2 Cascade. Test objects were a handful of cables of varying construction and claims to audiophile performance.
Distortion: Not only sine wave, but also extremely complex full-spectrum multitone testing (including signal sequences derived from actual music). There were NO differences between the cables tested.
Phase noise: While this would have shown up anyway in the above tests, it was separately checked at frequencies well above the audio band. Nothing showed up .
“Micro phase shifts”: The AP2′s resolution is so good you can read the length of a cable to within a few inches by measuring the phase difference between input and output. Apart from this, nothing turned up.
In-Out difference. Actually, two different cables of equal length were fed the above distortion test signals in opposite phase. The two outputs were summed through a trimmable network to null the output. Well, the output nulled completely (better than 120dB across the audio band).
In short, apart from a constant time delay of a few nanoseconds (depending on length), an interconnect will have the same voltage at its output as at its input.
But What If…?
Or will it? There’s one well known (and usually ignored) effect in unbalanced connections, which is that the same conductor that connects the chassis also serves as reference to the signal. In a normal cable, these are 100% coupled, which means that the part of the chassis error voltage that drops across the inductive part of the cable impedance (end-to-end impedance of the shield) will couple into the conductor and be compensated 100% (Yes! Unbalanced connections have got CMRR in some way). However, lower frequencies will cause more voltage drop across the resistive component of the shield, and this appears as an error voltage at the receiving end. Take a coaxial cable, take the jacket (sheath) off and dress it in a number of extra layers of shield salvaged from other cables. Hear the sound improve… This addresses the same problem as “mains conditioners” but it does so much more effectively.
The intelligent solution however, is to use balanced connections.
Microphonics
There may not be a difference between what goes into a cable and what comes out, but this does not mean that the presence of the cable can’t modify the signal. I’m talking about microphonics of course. This effect has two causes: triboelectric charging and condenser mic effect .
Triboelectric charging is the same effect that causes you to accumulate electric charge when walking across a thick carpet in winter. The charge is siphoned off to the terminating resistances (mostly the output impedance of the source) and creates a voltage there as long as the cable is moving.
Applying a “bias voltage” as is done by certain cable companies in a bid to linearise the dielectric (the purported nonlinearity of which consistently fails to show up in any test) is extremely counterproductive in this respect! The higher the voltage on the cable, the greater the condenser microphone effect.
Reducing triboelectric charging is done by using a dielectric/conductor duo that produces little contact charge. Aluminium and paper are one such combination, cotton and steel another. Unfortunately, paper and especially cotton are quite soft, making the cable particularly susceptible to the condenser mic effect. A method to reduce triboelectric noise in normal insulators consists of lubricating the shield/insulator interface with graphite.
Reducing the condenser mic effect requires a tough (hard to deform) dielectric. Teflon is a famous example. Unfortunately, teflon is incredibly triboelectric against practically any other substance.
Measured microphonic impulse responses show tremendous ringing in the upper audio band. This could explain the “brightness” often attributed to silver/teflon cables.
To make matters worse, teflon and silver are about the worst thinkable combination in terms of triboelecticity .
On the other hand, there is the “sound engineering” solution: use a signal source with the lowest possible impedance. Charges generated and transferred because of either effect are absorbed at the source and the receiving end will never get to see it. I have been surprised, though, of how low this drive impedance should be before cable microphonics disappear below the noise floor of good audio gear.
Summary
To recap: to make cables disappear from the sonic equation, all that is needed is balanced transmission combined with sub-1ohm output impedance line drivers. I would like to propose this as a standard for audiophile equipment makers.
It shows that people who claim that cables do not make a difference are plainly deluding themselves. On the other hand, those that say that cables should not make a difference, are dead right.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Audio Distortion: Finding the Source and Clearing the Air
https://www.behindthemixer.com/audio-distortion/
Noise versus distortion
An easy mistake to make is hearing noise in the system and assuming it’s distortion. Therefore, to make it clear:
Distortion is heard as the result of a change of the original signal to something else.
Noise is an external (random) signal added to the original signal.
Think of it like this, if you scream into a microphone and the mic can’t handle the loud volume, then the audio signal will be distorted. If you run a power cable next to an unbalanced cable, you’ll hear noise (interference) in the signal. Another way to look at it is the loss of clarity is distortion, the addition of interference is noise.
What’s the ultimate cause of distortion?
Typically, clipping is the reason for distortion as distortion is merely the audible detection of clipping. Clipping occurs when an audio component can’t provide enough power supply voltage to cleanly handle the signal. This can happen for varies reasons. For the needs of this article, I’ll leave it at that.
This can be seen on the channel level, mixer level, and even the amplifier level. It’s one thing to over-drive speakers, it’s another to over-drive an amp. Clipping, in this case, occurs when an amplifier is pushed to create a signal with more power than its power supply can produce. It will amplify the signal only up to its maximum capacity, at which point the signal cuts or clips at the maximum capacity of the amplifier.
Reasons for distortion
Audio distortion can occur for a number of reasons. Common reasons include:
A microphone or sound source, like a computer, is overloaded with sound. For example, the microphone can’t handle the volume level which it’s detecting and thus distorts the sound that it’s sending into the sound system.
An instrument sends too hot of a signal into the system. I’ve seen this when a bassist uses a SansAmp on stage and is boosting their signal so much that it overloads the input.
Speakers are being pushed beyond their limits. Working in live audio production, you might have the occasion of working on equipment not set up to handle louder volumes than your gig requires. Pushing speakers to produce louder sounds than they were designed to produce will lead to a distorted output. This isn’t distortion through clipping as much as it is the speaker’s hardware is unable to reproduce the signal it’s sent, though it’s still about voltage.
Amplifier clipping. This happens when, as mentioned, the amp is overdriven.
Faulty equipment. Equipment can fail in a variety of ways. For example, an effects processor could fail and you’d no longer hear any sounds passed through it. However, it could also fail and you’d hear a distorted sound passed out of the processor. This may or may not be related to the component’s ability to handle the signal as much as the result of busted internals.
Identifying the source of distortion
When you hear a “bad sound” in your system, you need to identify the source of the sound and take corrective measures. Consider these steps.
Identify if it’s distortion or noise. If it’s static-y or occasional, chances are it is noise and a review of cabling and wireless receivers is in order.
Review the amplifier and check for clipping. This will tell you if the problem is at the amp-level or before. If the amp is clipping, check to see if any channels are clipping. If they are, the problem is with a channel. If they aren’t, the problem is with the overall signal-output.
Review the mixer’s output meter for clipping. This can easily be the sign of a channel problem. It’s also possible, though not likely, to be a combination of all the channels summed together and creating a louder output that the mixer can’t handle.
Review the channels for clipping. The LED or meter lights or clip/peak light can clue you into the specific channel.
Review the stage equipment. It’s possible that the distortion is occurring at the component level on the stage. For example, the bassist’s Sansamp is overdriving the signal that’s going into a stage input box or something else that can’t handle the voltage. That equipment then passes on a distorted signal without a sign that anything “looks” wrong with the signal on the mixer.
Check the speakers. If everything else checks out, it could be a blown speaker.
Check out this article for how to check your speakers.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Distortion Meter and Audio Interconnect Tester
https://audioxpress.com/article/distortion-meter-and-audio-interconnect-tester
Brian, who hangs around my shop, tells the story of the first time he made a batch of guitar cables. Some of them sounded fine, while others did not. He had just discovered cold solder joints. After he re-soldered the bad cables, some of them still did not sound right. He finally replaced the plugs to get the high end brilliance that his ears told him to expect. He has been curious since then about why bad soldering had appeared to have damaged a plug.
Soldering today is even more difficult with the effort underway to remove hazardous materials from the environment. Much solder used today is lead-free. I decided to test the different types of solder to see which one works and sounds best to me.
There seems to be controversy over what testing means in audio. Measuring a difference does not mean you can hear it. For example, if you paint your loudspeakers yellow, it would be a great surprise to hear a difference in a blind test. You could certainly measure and document the change in color. If you asked a panel of listeners to indicate their preferences, there would probably be a significant difference of opinion about the sound quality if they were looking at the loudspeakers.
Even with identical components, there are differences. The evidence that color changes sound quality would need to be almost overwhelming before it would even be worth considering. On the other hand, if my ears tell me there is a difference between two audio chains and I cannot measure it, that does not mean it is not there. The color change in the previous example probably is the wrong method to determine audio differences. I could measure frequency response, distortion, or other parameters to find the difference. Even if all the measurements were exactly the same, but my ears told me there was a difference, then it would be a question as to where my measurements failed or whether there was something else that should be measured.
Results
The first sweeps showed a major difference. To be certain what was being measured was accurate, I swapped the test leads and jacks around. Turns out my first measurement was not what it seemed to be. The difference measured was accurate, but it was the difference in the contact of the RCA jacks. One jack allowed the test lead to insert fully, but the other, being slightly out of round, did not allow the same contact. The difference was almost immeasurable, after I forced in the plug. There seemed to be a slight advantage to one of the solders, but not enough to be definitive. The difference between a very tight plug and a tight plug was at least ten times more of a difference than the 110 solder joints! Basically, all I was seeing was noise levels.
Setup
The next step was to make an even more sensitive measurement. After some experimenting with measuring very low level distortion, I was building a digital scale. This required me to use a Wheatstone bridge and instrumentation amplifier. Applying these designs and using the Audio Precision to measure the difference between two cables showed much better results. So I decided to build a stand-alone instrument for easy use and have an output for a spectrum analyzer to give more detailed results.
Based upon the previous experiments, the method would be to measure the intermodulation distortion of a low-level signal. If you have two sine waves, one of a high frequency and one a bit lower passing through the same connection, you get two sine waves out, if everything is perfect. At times one sine wave may be going positive when the other goes negative. Regularly these two different sine waves will collide and cancel each other out. But as long as the circuit path is perfect, you just get two sine waves out.
If there is a small dead zone around zero volts, then this cancellation will occur longer than it should. This will appear to produce a new sine wave at the difference in frequency between the two test sine waves. The same can happen when the system clips or even is nonlinear. It also will occur at the sum of the two frequencies. The bad news is the smaller the error, the lower the voltage of the new frequency. That is why the spectrum analyzer by itself did not show the difference.
It is generally accepted that intermodulation distortion adds a grungy, low-frequency, muddy sound to music and conceals a great deal of low-level detail. To test your connections, you need the two test signals to be low enough that they will be the typical audio signal level. Brian’s experience indicates that he heard the effect at guitar levels, which is about 100mV. Also, note that the output impedance of a guitar pickup is low rising with frequency and the input impedance of a guitar amplifier is high. Classic models of guitar amplifiers have two inputs, one a megohm and the other 100K.
A good choice seemed to be to use a source impedance of 100Ω. This is about the output impedance of much consumer gear. This type of output is usually loaded by a 10K or higher impedance.
Ordinarily I would just look at the difference frequency. My earlier measurements hinted that this by itself was not enough. The noise from the test path seemed to be increasing in the presence of signal. The normal noise can be the always present thermal noise, or flicker noise, which is inversely proportional to frequency, or it could even be outside noise sources being radiated into the system.
Lots of other possible noise sources exist, but these are the big three. A noise that only occurred or increased in the presence of signal would, of course, be a form of distortion. If this noise varied with different test paths, you could begin to believe it was the device under test that was producing it.
To generate a low noise, low distortion, stable in frequency test signal should not be too hard.
Lessons Learned
This instrument is difficult to build and make work reliably. I have provided parts lists. The ground wiring is most important to prevent contamination of the signals.
I decided to test some inexpensive RCA-RCA cables I had on hand. Figure 4 shows three different cables. One is a short silver jumper with decent gold RCA plugs. It reads 6.25dB above the noise floor on the meter and has the lowest noise and distortion. The second is a video coax with cheap gold RCA connectors. It has much more noise and distortion and reads 11dB on the meter. The last is a cheap audio cable with cosmetic gold-plated connectors. It reads 12dB on the meter. So there really is a correlation between how you build cables and the test results.
If you look closely at the test results in Fig. 5, you notice the effects of cable directionality. Sometimes, after taking a reading, I turned the cord around and read a different value on the meter. The spectrum analyzer shows why.
Surprisingly, audio cables really do work better one way! To see whether this difference really was there, I used a two-cable switch on my test setup: a Sony CD player through a custom resistive volume control to my custom class A amplifiers into my corner horns.
Here are some of the lessons learned:
• Solder connections were at least 50 times better than the best plain mechanical connectors.
• Gold connectors mating to gold connectors work best.
• Shiny (chrome, nickel?) connectors mating to gold are not quite as good — when clean and newly inserted — but become worse within hours.
• Shiny plugged into shiny is not as good as gold on gold.
• Some gold cords made for video and audio were horrible.
• Putting a surge through a cable lowers the distortion for a time, but it comes back. (Maybe the needle drop noise was good for hi-fi!)
The final results on solder are shown in Fig. 6. I just don’t see any significant differences. 110 solder joints and it still is better than 6″ of silver wire! It may be too late for Brian, but I suspect that if he had cleaned his overheated connectors and removed the oxide that had built up on them, they may have sounded fine.
Tomi Engdahl says:
What Wire Does With All Those Electrons, or
Everything you ever didn’t want to know about wire
and should probably have been afraid to ask.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/whatwiredoes.htm
What’s in a Wire?
The features of a wire which most affect a signal are resistance, capacitance and inductance. Let’s look at these, one at a time:
Resistance: Although some materials are very good conductors and others are very good insulators, there’s no such thing as either a perfect conductor or a perfect insulator. All materials have “resistance,” which simply represents the opposition the material presents to the flow of current. When current flows through any material, no matter how conductive, some of the electrical energy is transformed into heat. This is why, for example, a lightweight extension cord can’t safely be used to power a large air conditioner–the power demands of the air conditioner put so much electricity through the cord that it heats up greatly, the insulation softens, and a fire hazard is created. From an audio/video perspective, while it’s better to have low resistance than high resistance, the good news is that resistance doesn’t really, in itself, do much to distort signals; it just makes them a little weaker at the far end of the wire than they were when they went in, and absent unusually long wire lengths or other peculiar circumstances, that’s not much of an issue.
Capacitance: One of the ways in which electricity does not resemble water flowing in a pipe is that electrical systems exhibit “capacitance.” Imagine, if you will, that we take two sheets of aluminum foil and place a good insulator–say, a thin sheet of glass–between them. We then take a power cord, attach one of its leads to each piece of foil, and plug it in to the wall. No current should flow in this circuit, you’d think, because the pieces of foil can’t touch each other–and without contact, there’s nothing but an insulator to flow across, and electricity doesn’t flow across insulators, right? In fact, what happens is downright strange. On each cycle of the alternating current, electrons will flow into one side of the foil, acting like they had someplace to go despite the fact that the foil’s a dead end. When the voltage reverses, electrons will flow out of that piece of foil and into the other piece of foil; and this dance will repeat itself sixty times per second. A meter hooked up to the circuit will show that a current is flowing, despite the fact that, to look at it, you’d figure there was nothing for the electricity to do. This is capacitance, and we’ll talk more about its implications for audio/video later.
Inductance: another important way in which electrical flow differs from the flow of water is in the characteristic we call “inductance.” When electricity flows through a wire, it creates a magnetic field around the wire, and in the case of an alternating current, that magnetic field is constantly in flux, energizing and collapsing at high speed. This magnetic field, in turn, interacts with other magnetic and electrical fields, sometimes in profound ways, and presents opposition to the very electrical flows which create it. An extreme but instructive example of what inductance can do is a device we’re all familiar with: the power transformer. A transformer uses inductance to change electricity from one voltage to another, and like capacitance, acts in a surprising way. If you were to peel the cover off of a small power transformer, you’d find an iron core with a large amount of insulated wire wound around it. Let’s say you follow the live wire from the wall into the transformer to see where it goes—guess what? It goes into the transformer, goes around and around the core perhaps several hundred times, and then goes right back to the neutral wire in the wall. Where the capacitor in our last example appeared to be an open circuit, but current flowed regardless of the fact that it was open, the transformer appears to create a short circuit, and you might expect it to blow the circuit breaker…but, of course, it doesn’t. Taking the transformer apart, you will have noticed that there were other wires wound around it, but which were not connected to the wires coming from the walls. What actually happens in the transformer is that the flow of current in the wire that’s plugged into the wall sets up a powerful magnetic field, and that magnetic field, in turn, “induces” a current to flow in the other windings, producing a different voltage in those windings. (Incidentally, a transformer doesn’t, as many people think, turn AC into DC; that’s done by a “rectifier,” something which is outside the scope of our present discussion).
Outside Influences
So, a good cable has reasonably low resistance, to prevent meaningful signal loss; it has low capacitance and inductance, to prevent high-frequency loss; and it’s impedance matched (if designed for an impedance-matched application), to do the best job of delivering the signal to its destination. But those aren’t all the bullets the signal has to dodge. Electrons and their associated magnetic fields are everywhere, and part of the job a cable has to perform is to isolate the signal it carries from these outside influences.
Insulation, of course, is the first line of defense. Any cable is covered with a good insulator that keeps it from losing signal to other wires and objects it might happen to touch. The problem, however, is that an insulator only protects a wire from making a conductive contact with other sources of signal and noise, but can’t stop the wire from interacting, capacitively or inductively, with all those other electrons out there.
The best way to understand the problem, perhaps, is to think about radio. When a radio transmitter blasts 50,000 watts of power into the sky, that power travels everywhere in a pulsating wave of electromagnetic energy. How does it get into your radio so that you can hear it? Inductance is the answer. Your antenna and your radio’s internal circuitry are designed to resonate at or near the frequency of the transmitting station, so that the signal can be amplified, detected, amplified further, and transformed into something audible. This activity doesn’t rely upon good electrical contact–the air that separates your antenna from the radio station is an excellent insulator, and there might be miles of it in between the transmitter and receiver. The electromagnetic waves in the air “induce” a very small current in your antenna, and your radio does the rest. But electrons, of course, are dumb; they don’t just go after antennas, but interact with everything around, whether they’re welcome or not.
If the problem were only radio signals, then only those of us who happen to live very close to radio transmitters would have to worry about outside electromagnetic waves getting into our audio/video gear. In fact, however, many sources give off electromagnetic energy. You’ve probably had the experience of hearing a car engine on the radio; that’s because every spark emitted by a sparkplug releases a burst of electromagnetic waves. You’ve probably had the experience of hearing a radio click and hum when a fluorescent light was turned on; fluorescent lights, too, emit electromagnetic waves. What’s more, every device, and every cable, in your home audio/video system emits its own electromagnetic waves. Your VCR can interfere with your DVD player, and vice versa. Your refrigerator probably gives off an electrical “click” every time it turns on…and so on, and so on.
The problem, of course, is keeping all of this stuff out. The answer to this problem is shielding. Generally, an audio or video interconnect jack has an inner connector and an outer, circular connector–and the outer connector generally is grounded to the chassis of the device. A coaxial cable, instead of running its two conductors side by side like a power cord, has an outside conductor and an inside conductor, and the outside conductor is called the “shield” because it shields the inner conductor from the influence of outside electromagnetic energy. Ideally, what happens is that radio energy and noise encounter the shield, discharge their energy to ground through the braid, and never reach the inside conductor which is carrying the signal; the noise is never heard from again. For all manner of reasons, in practice it doesn’t always work quite this perfectly, but well-shielded cable is marvelous protection against noise. If a cable deals well with capacitance, inductance, attenuation, impedance matching, and shielding, it’ll do right by your ears and eyes.
Tomi Engdahl says:
3. Effect of varying the cable impedance.
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/skincoax/page8.html
Looking at Figure 4 we can see signs that the effect of the cable does depend upon its capacitance. However the effect shown in these examples is mainly confined to high frequencies. Without any cable effects we would expect the combination of a 600 Ohm source and a 25 kOhm load to produce a potential divider power loss of 0·206 dB. Even at 25kHz the above examples show loss values which are within 0·003 dB of this value. Thus any other effects seems so small as to be likely to be unnoticable in practice.
To check the assumption that the differences in behaviour about 25kHz are due to capacitance we can also examine the time domain effects for the same set of examples as were used for the above.
Figure 5 shows the time delays the cables produce. In each case the delay can be seen to be quite uniform over the audio band.
Table 2 shows the calculated delays at 1 kHz and 25 kHz which take into account the cable internal impedances etc, compared with the nominal time constant value produced by the combination of the source resistance and the cable capacitance. In each case the agreement between the calculated value and the delays is reasonably good.
To obtain a better agreement we can take into account the fact that so far as the cable capacitance is concerned charge may enter or leave via both the source and the load. We should therefore regard the source and load impedances as being in parallel so far as the cable capacitance is concerned. When we take this into account the effective charge-path resistance seen by the cable will be 585·9 Ohms, not 600 Ohms.
From the above we can draw some provisional general conclusions. The first is that for well behaved cables the loss and time delay values are likely to be highly uniform over the audio band. Secondly, that for the situations and cables considered the effects of internal impedance (including also d.c. cable resistance) seem to be so small as to make it doubtful that they are of any audible signficance. This does not exclude the possibility of some other effect influencing audio performance. Nor does it excude the possibility that inappropriately designed or built cables may degrade the signal transfer. However the cases analysed show far offer no support for claims that some cables offer improved performance for reasons related to “skin effects”.
The main implications are that the cable used should have reasonably low values for its capacitance and d.c. resistance per metre. From the above, a capacitance of around 100 pF/metre or less seems likely to be adequately low for interconnects that are no more than 2·5 metres long unless the source impedance is significantly higher than 600 Ohms. In practice, most good quality domestic audio sources are likely to have a source impedance below 600 Ohms, and the interconnects employed may often be only 1 metre in length. Thus even keeping to no more than 100 pF/m seems to be erring on the side of caution.
Tomi Engdahl says:
The Effects Of Cable On Signal Quality
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/CableCapacitance.pdf
System designs often require output amplifier stages of microphones and line-leveldevices to drive long lengths of cable with its associated capacitance. Most equipment works well in this application, but some equipment will allow significant signal degradation. The simple fact that measurable problems exist calls for more consideration of these factors by manufacturers. Until that happens, systems designers must pay more attention to output circuit specifications and performance. Several years ago, I was asked to study the effects of different types of microphonecables on sound quality. I used time delay spectrometry (TDS) to measure microphone response with a variety of cable types and lengths. I fed a loudspeaker a TDS sweep via a power amplifier.
High-frequency peaking/ringing. Some microphones exhibited a significant peaking of high-frequency response relative to their response with a short cable. This peaking was attributed to the capacitive loading of the microphones output stage by long (50m-150m) lengths of cable. I confirmed this assumption by substituting a fixed capacitance equivalent to the cable length and made all subsequent measurements with this fixed capacitance instead of the cable.
Most microphones exhibited some rolloff (typically -3dB at 30kHz) • Well-and resistive loss (typically 0.3dB) with cables of 1,000 feet or more. (See Figure 2.)The dynamic microphones measured primarily fell into the second category and tended to exhibit more rolloff than the condenser mics.
High-frequency peaking/ringing
A significant peaking of high-frequency response
was measured in only one manufacturer’s equipment, but it was quite serious. (See Figure 3A.) Capacitance equivalent to only 50m (150 feet) of cable produced a peakof 7dB at 20kHz and enough phase shift to raise questions about stability, such as, will it oscillate? Increasing the capacitance to an equivalent cable length of 200m (650 feet) reduced the peak slightly, to only 6dB and moved it down to 13kHz.
Well-behaved. A slong cables (2,000 feet or more) with most equipment that had output impedances of 100Ω or less.
Excessive high-frequency rolloff. A severe high-frequequipment that used a 600Ω output stage — typically -3dB at 16kHz with 150m (500 feet) of cable and a high-impedance load. Adding a 600Ω load (at either end of the cable) raises the -3dB frequency to 32kHz (-1.5dB at 20kHz), but at theexpense of 6dB of headroom.
Audio cables can act like transmission lines, but only when they are exceptionally long.
By studying how all of this works mathematically, ago that if the signal frequency is low enough (or the line is short enough) and thelength of the line is less than one-tenth of an electrical wavelength, don’t worry
the cable does not act enough like a transmission line. These short cables (short in terms of a wavelength) act like nothing more complicated than the sum of these parallel capacitances, series inductances and series resistances. When load impedances are high, the series inductance, like the series resistance, is too small to have significant effect.
The characteristic impedance omaterial and the spacing between its conductors.1 For modern audio cables, this is on the order of 60Ω. (A recent major cable manufacturer’s catalog specifies nominal characteristic impedances of its audio snake cables as 50Ω for one type and 70Ω for another).
The electrical wavelength of a 20kHz signal in typical cable is nearly 10,000m (more than 6 miles). To start showing transmission-line effects, the cable would have to be at least 0.1-wavelength long, which, at 20kHz, is 1,000m (3,280 feet).
Significant harmonic energy is present in all live audio. Response p60kHz can cause measurable and audible distortion of the waveform when this ultrasonic energy is clipped or excites intermodulation, generating distortion products (including oscillation) inside the conventional (up to 20kHz) audio spectrum. 3 Minor transmission line effects will begin to appear at 60kHz with about 330m (1,100 feet) of cable.
Audio cable is available in three ramost flexible and snake cable, has about 30-34 pf per foot. Low-capacitance cable has about 20 pf per foot and is more expensive. Special cable constructions optimized to reduce noise pickup (star-quad and some double-shielded cables) have 46-56pF per foot.
From thstage driving it should be as low as possible. In a fine application note,4 the late Deane Jensen showed that output stages need some isolation from the loads they drive, and he outlined methods of keeping that resistance as low as possible by using small wire-wound inductors. In a later application note, Jensen showed a 990 op-amp driving 2,000 feet of Belden 8451 as 50Ω cable via a 1:1 transformer.5 His circuit adds 30Ω of fixed series resistance to the 40Ω loss resistance of the output transformer to provide the necessary isolation.
Other, more generalized applications are shoresistor and wire-wound inductor in series with the primary of an optional output transformer. The first circuit would provide a 70Ω output impedance; the second would provide a 15Ω output without the transformer and 30 ohms with it.
The capacitance forms a low-pass filter with the parallel combination of the 15source and 1,000 load, having a -3dB frequency (f3dB) of 1/(2πRC). The resistance for this circuit is (150x 1 ,000)/(150+ 1,000), or 130Ω, so f3dB is 36kHz, and the mic’s response will be down about 1.2dB at 20kHz. If the mic’s output impedance were 100Ω, then f3dB is 50kHz, the response will be only 0.6dB down at 20kHz, and the resistive component of the loss drops to 1dB.
A line-level example For line-level devices, the result changes because the impedances change, usually for the better. The modern audio output stages output impedance is 100Ω or lower, and input stages have input impedances of 10,000Ωor more. For the same 1,000-foot line, the resistive component of line-loss becomes 10,000/10,033, or 0.03dB. To find f3dB: R is (10,000×100)/(10,100)=9.9kΩand C is 0.034μF, so f3dB is 47kHz, with a loss of 0.75dB at 20kHz. (See Figure 4.) Lowering the output impedance to 60Ω moves f3 up to 78kHz and reduces the loss at 20kHz to 0.25dB. A 600 ohm example A 600Ω output stage doesn’t work nearly as well.
600 ohm circuits 600Ω output and input impedances are an anachronism left over from vacuum tube and telephone days, and they have no place in modern audio. 600Ω became an audio standard when intercity telephone circuits were made of lines that had 600Ω characteristic impedance. Matching to this impedance was the right thing to do then
Solid-state circuits do not need these loads to perform at their best; the 600Ω resistors use up headroom, increase distortion and degrade frequency response.
Back to the real world This survey of modern professional microphones shows that although actual output impedances vary a bit from their published value (all of the microphones tested were rated by their manufacturer for 150Ω), and although their actual output impedances ranged between 90Ω and 600Ω, most were between 100Ω and 300Ω. In general, the output impedances of condenser and electret condenser mics tended to be about half that of dynamic mics.
When our survey looked at line output devices, it showed that although their actual output impedances range between 24Ω and 600Ω, most were between 30Ω and 100Ω. Of all the equipment measured, only one manufacturer that called its equipment “professional” used an output impedance higher than 150Ω, and even two-thirds of the hi-fi equipment tested had output impedances lower than 600Ω.
This situation has improved significantly from 10 years ago, when many professional audiotape and videotape recorders had 600Ω output impedances and needed 600Ω loads just to keep their VU meters calibrated!
Transformer outputsA small mixer using inexpensive output transformers produced ringing (a rising high-frequency response) with capacitive loads. (See Figure 6A.) This ringing is nearly eliminated when a 600Ω load resistance is added.(See Figure 6B) Does this mean all transformer outputs should be terminated? No,only the under-designed ones. Does this mean manufacturers should use better transformers? Yes.
What about current? A capacitance of 0.05μF is only 160Ω at 20kHz, so this is not an easy load to drive, particularly at high signal levels. Output stages don’t work hard until they supply significant amounts of current, and they don’t supply muchcurrent working into a bridging (high-impedance) load. That’s why removing the 600Ω load from a 50Ω output stage improves headroom by more than just thevoltage divider ratio. Specifying an output stage for a 600Ω load means that it will supply that much current. But how many line-level output stages can drive a 160Ωload at +2OdBu? How many microphones can supply the current it takes to follow a voltage waveform from a closely miked trumpet, a sibilant vocal, or a cymbal crash working into this much capacitance? At mid-frequencies (below a fewkilohertz), a mic may be able to handle peaks of +130dB SPL, but will it go into distortion when its output stage is asked to supply the current required to drive the low impedance of the capacitive load at these high frequencies?
A reasonable specification As users or systems designers, we would like all professional audio equipment to be able to drive a capacitive load of 0.05μF or less in parallel with a resistance of 600Ω or greater with minimal degradation in performance. Minimal degradation means that frequency response is +0, -0.5dB be- tween 20Hz and 20kHz, and +0, -1dB to 30kHz, which dictates that the output impedance needs to be less than 53Ω.
Are these necessary specifications? Yes, because cable has capacitance, and RF sometimes needs to be bypassed with capacitance. The 600Ω load capability allowsmany inputs to be driven in parallel by a single output stage without the use of distribution amplifiers and allows the use of simple resistive networks to combine multiple sources into a single input.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Effect of Co-Axial Cable Capacitance on Audio Signal Performance
https://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/forum/general-discussion/general-audio/54656-effect-of-co-axial-cable-capacitance-on-audio-signal-performance
Conclusion – since the audio spectrum runs from 20 Hz to 20 kHz (20 Kilo Hertz), the cable capacitance will have no impact on signal loss on short runs. The dominant pole in these situations will be internal compensation of the source or the roll-off characteristics of the receiver.
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/audio-cables-wiring
Tomi Engdahl says:
Effect of cable capacitance to low frequency analog voltage signal transmission
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/377617/effect-of-cable-capacitance-to-low-frequency-analog-voltage-signal-transmission
The lower the frequency you go, generally there are fewer problems but, there is one notable exception; that being when a cable is used for two-way telephony (more later).
A cable is a transmission line and it has four notable parameters: -
Capacitance per unit length
Inductance per unit length
Resistance per unit length
Conductance per unit length
These four parameters are used in t-line analysis to predict the characterisic impedance of the cable:
This formula is then modified for RF by assuming that jwL is much greater than R and that jwC is much greater than G: -
Z0=LC−−√
So typically for 250 nH per metre and 100 pF per metre, Z0 is 50 ohms (do the math!).
Regarding sending a low freq. (<150Hz) analog voltage signal with CAT6 STP cable
Since you say this is a cable for a sensor, we're not talking about telephony or bidirectional transmission. So, at these very low frequencies, unless your cable is something like 1km long you won't have to worry about transmission line effects, and therefore there is only one interesting parameter to model your cable: its capacitance. At 100pF/m for 100m, let's use C=10nF.
Your sensor's output will have an output impedance too. This is important.
If the sensor's output impedance is resistive, and high enough, then it will create a RC lowpass with the cable capacitance. For example, if your sensor has a 1MegOhm output impedance, then with C=10nF you'll have a lowpass with a corner at 15Hz, so your 150Hz frequency of interest will be quite attenuated. In this case you will need a buffer or an amplifier to drive the cable from a lower impedance, and it should be able to deliver enough output current to drive the cable capacitance at the frequency of interest.
If the sensor output impedance is reactive, for example it is a magnetic pickup, the cable's capacitance can create a resonance peak at some frequency. If the sensor is capacitive (like a piezo) then the cable inductance can create a LC resonance. This is why, even if the cable only transmits very low frequencies and you don't have to worry about transmission line effects, it is a good idea to add a resistor equal to the cable's characteristic impedance in series to dampen any resonance. If your sensor has a very reactive impedance, perhaps you need to think about it and calculate a resistor value for proper damping.
If the cable is driven by an opamp, it can become unstable, as opamps generally dislike capacitive loads. Again, add a series termination resistor equal to the cable's impedance.
A "surprise" effect of cable capacitance is that it also tends to vary when the cable is bent, or someone steps on it, which will create charge proportional to the DC voltage on the cable multiplied by capacitance variation. In other words:
q=Cv
implies that ∂q=C∂v+v∂C
, don't forget your partial derivatives!
There is also tribo-electricity. If a long cable is driven by a high impedance, it can become quite a good microphone. The resulting voltage is proportional to the impedance of the driver, so if your driver has a low impedance it is much less of a problem. If it is high impedance (like ECG electrodes or stage microphone) then a bit more caution is warranted.
In real life, a CAT6 cable would have to be pretty long (measure in kilometers) for the capacitance to become noticeable at 150Hz in most cases. Higher frequencies will show the same effect with less cable, so it's unclear to me why your source mentioned low frequencies in particular.
A buffer will not necessarily "fix" this, because capacitive loads will upset various buffers, depending on phase and gain behaviors.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Is interconnect capacitance a red herring?
https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/111309-is-interconnect-capacitance-a-red-herring/
I am trying to choose between two interconnect manufacturers for two-metre runs from pre-amp to vintage valve mono blocks. One claims capacitance of 97pF/m; the other about 50pF/m. Both are at the budget end for i/cs and more or less identically-priced, leaving the difference in capacitance as the most obvious, but is this a red herring for such short runs? All guidance appreciated.
For a 1m run, it won’t matter, but it depends on the output impedance of the preamp. If it’s low, say under 1kohms, it won’t matter at all. If it’s high, say above 5kohms, then the lower capacitance the better. In between 1-5k, rather depends on the length, but for a 1m, I wouldn’t worry either way, but on balance I would always go for the lower capacitance, just out of good practice.
Taken from Reference Fidelity’s website if it helps….their interconnects are the best I’ve come across so I for one trust his opinion:
“The term “LCR” is commonly used to describe Inductance, Capacitance and Resistance (or in the case of AC signals, Impedance). This is principally what matters for all audio signal cables. Interconnects differ from speaker cables in that they are principally in a low current, high impedance circuit and speaker cables are in a high current circuit driving low impedance ‘speaker loads.
Whats the difference? Well in low current systems of milliamps but with driving voltages of between a few millivolts and say 5 volts, the signal is less prone to inductance effects on the signal due to the low value of current being passed. Inductance is the ability of a conductor to store energy in a magnetic field, with the property that in doing so it creates an opposing voltage proportional to the rate of change of current in a circuit. In effect, the current flowing down a signal conductor creates a tiny electromagnetic field but in signal applications the value is so low as to be negligible in terms of inductive reactance (not so in speaker cables).
So with tiny phono or line-level currents at audio frequencies, inductance isn’t that important, nor is resistance (or impedance) with the exception of shield or ground resistance, since the output impedance of a source component is much lower than the input impedance of the receiving amplifier (therefore the cable resistance is not going to affect the signal unless it is inconceivably high).
This just leaves Capacitance. Many of you may have read that capacitance at audio frequencies is not important, but it is, very important, especially where phono signals are concerned. High cable capacitance combined with the source impedance can form a low pass filter. The higher the source impedance, the greater the impacts of capacitance and the more the HF will be rolled off. A good example is with phono signals. Consider a high inductance source such as a MM cartridge. As frequency increases, so does source impedance due to the high inductive nature of the MM cartridge design. Therefore as frequency rises and output impedance rises, combining that with a high capacitive load (either high capacitance cable or excessive cable lengths) will make HF response suffer.
The other deleterious effect of capacitance in low level audio signal cables is that the storage and release of energy caused has an effect on the audio signal, whether subjective “detractors” believe this or not, it is an audio fact, NOT an audio myth. An audio signal, unlike a single form RF signal, is made up of multiple complex waveforms varying in amplitude and frequency. These include harmonic waveforms which make up things like specific tones and timbres. They are related by phase (time difference between signals) amongst other things and capacitance, even low level capacitance, affects these phase relationships. However subtle those impacts are, they nevertheless change in some fundamental way the nature of the signal such that the waveform loses part of the true timbrel accuracy of the original signal, so in general, the lower the cable capacitance the better, hence the shorter the cable the better. How audible subtle shifts in phase accuracy are depend on may factors not least the rest of the audio chain, but seeking perfection or at least good practice is a worthwhile goal if one wishes to do everything possible to preserve the audio signal.
Many MM cartridges like to see a load generally of lower than 400 or 500pF. Taking the phono stage input into consideration (typically 150 to 250 pF) you can see the effects of adding capacitance from a cable of say 3m long with 100pF/m capacitance. It may have a marked effect on signal. For this reason, single core coax is best suited to longer runs for phono leads since it’s capacitance is lower. This effect is not as pronounced for MC cartridges as their outputs, hence inductance values tend to be lower.”
That just goes on about capacitance needing to be taken in to consideration for phono cables for MM cartridges.
Get the one that has the best connectors, and keep them clean.
It seems that Reference Fidelity is very happy to take technical statements out of context and jump to incorrect conclusions. With the exception of phono cartridge to pre-amp cables all this capacitor business happens at frequencies much higher than the audio frequency band. Go back to SergeAuckland’s post #2 for the correct answer.
In the case of phono cartridge to pre-amp cables it’s a different situation.They act as a tuned circuit with the cable capacitance changing the frequency.
Tomi Engdahl says:
UNDERSTANDING, FINDING, &ELIMINATING GROUND LOOPS
https://web.mit.edu/jhawk/tmp/p/EST016_Ground_Loops_handout.pdf
Bill Whitlock has designed pro audio-video electronics and systems since 1973. In 1989, after sevenyears with Capitol Records, he assumed presidency of Jensen Transformers. He has become arecognized expert on system interfacing issues through his writing and teaching. His landmark paperon balanced interfaces was published in the June 1995 AES Journal, which has since become themost popular ever printed. Other writing includes the popular “Clean Signals” column for S&VCmagazine, the ongoing “Clear Path” column for Live Sound magazine, three chapters for GlenBallou’s 1500-page “Handbook for Sound Engineers,” and numerous other magazine articles andJensen application notes. Since 1994, he has helped thousands unravel the mysteries of groundingandsignal interfacing by teachingat trade shows, universities, andprofessional organizations. Billholds several patents including the InGenius® balanced input circuit and the ExactPower®waveform-correcting ac power voltage regulator. He is a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society anda Senior Member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Understanding Audio and Video Wire and Cable
Understanding Audio and Video Wire and Cable
https://www.ramelectronics.net/understanding-av-cables.aspx
Tomi Engdahl says:
Conductor Design- some comments on the importance of wiring
https://sw1xad.co.uk/conductor-design-some-comments-on-the-importance-of-wiring/
Ideal cable is a zero impedance conductor. Ideally, it would present zero impedance to a music carrying signal. Any serious imperfection of a conductor can only contribute to an impedance mismatch, which is the main issue for the signal transmission. In order to avoid it, the cables must “adapt” themselves to the impedance requirements across the source and the signal receiver. Everything matters when it comes to quality and quantity, whether it is the material of a conductor or the reactance of a complete cable.
Our non-ideal world is full of limitations dictated by the laws of physics. Unfortunately, there are no ideal components in a non-ideal world. Each conductive material has its own sonic character and is characterised by the residual presence of the three main electric properties such as resistance, inductance and capacitance. The combined interaction of these properties is called impedance. Since impedance depends on signal frequency, an impedance mismatch between the source (e.g. CD player) and the load (e.g. amplifier) act as signal frequency filter. All filters modulate signals and cause signal degradation.
In spite of all natural limitations, we should not accept a compromise on signal transmission. The main objective was to create a minimum compromise conductor, which maximises signal integrity and its transfer behavior while minimising the effects of as resistance, inductance and capacitance causing signal modulation or simply a loss of a signal integrity. In transmission line theory terms, we looked to design a conductor that would match the impedances (i.e. minimise the signal loss) between the signal source and the load more closely. After all, the main goal of a cable design is to maximise the signal transfer behavior i.e. minimise the impedance mismatch, overcoming the effects of resistance, inductance and capacitance.
Numerous experimentation with cable designs and investigation into the effect of conductor materials on the quality of reproduction of sound, led us to believe that the material quality of a conductor, its dielectric environment and construction are the most significant factors that affect the signal transmission. Some of the findings can be summarised as follows:
Importance of the conductor material
Every conductive material does have a distinct sound signature. Without going into the debate of personal preferences, we find that pure Silver conductors sound generally more revealing, dynamic and more musical. When pure silver was used as a conductor, everything seemed to sound more magical relative to the copper based materials. Is there any reasonable explanation?
Maybe it is the difference in conductive property across silver and copper material. Silver is a better conductor than copper. Each atom of silver has a higher electron capacity of 18 more electrons, resulting in 6-7% more conductivity relative to copper. While we cannot explain and find it difficult to believe how 6-7% better conductivity of silver over copper makes a significant difference, we also noticed that the larger the amount of silver in the conductor the better the low level musical resolution is.
Silver alloy materials should not be confused with a silver plated copper material, which not only sounds inferior and but also only uses less than 1% of Silver.
Insulation around the conductors
What really makes a significant difference, we think is the dielectric or insulation material around conductors. A silver conductor of identical material quality can either shine or sound dull depending on the choice of the dielectric material. There many options here: polyurethane, PVA, cotton, silk, PTFT and many others. Some dielectrics are better with silver and some are worse. If a dialectic material sits to close on a conductive material and there are many conductors in parallel, the capacitance of a cable increases. That is a clearly an undesired effect, which we wanted to minimise. After numerous experiments with cable geometry we arrived at a choice of least compromise: Air -the best real world attainable dielectric. While it is not possible to have a 100% air dielectric we strived to maximise its presence by intentionally making a use of oversized PTFE tubing (up to 5x the conductor thickness). The results speak for themselves. We achieved less capacitance, less distortion, more clarity, resolution, air, and greater dynamics and last but not least the amount of energy unleashed.
On the matter of cable construction
While conductor and insulation materials are crucial to the performance of a signal transmission, the arrangement of these materials is a factor of no less importance. There is almost unlimited number of combinations of choosing the size and the quantity of conductors and ways of how to arrange them. All these choices are different forms of a compromise. Too thin conductors sound excellent in the treble frequency region but usually sound poor in the bass frequency region, while for the thicker conductors the issue is vice versa. On the one hand any conductor twisting is undesirable since it increases inductance and resistance. On the other, paralleling many conductors decreases resistance but paralleling too close and too many increases capacitance too. Using a screen surely has benefits of shielding against RFI and other parasitic radio frequencies but brings a drawback of increased capacitance and reduction of airiness in the sound.
Our objective has been to maximise the signal transmission while minimising the impedance mismatch. The key to that is to keep the geometry elegantly simple.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Does PS Audio still make power cables?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_jikR2x90A
Recent visitors to PS Audio’s renowned Music Room Three have noticed a change from PS Audio’s own brand of power cables to another: Audioquest. What happened?
Video comments:
Wow this is very rare to hear, a manufacturer to say “our cable isn’t better than this cable”! Great honesty sir!
Buy some Amazon basic cables, cover with a fancy braid and add some stickers with arrows on. Then convince yourself they sound amazing. Don’t forget to freeze them.
Harpal Chauhan had qed cables, no difference to amazon basic. I have had £500 kimber interconnects and sold them, but only after I realised that it’s all bs. But maybe my system was not revealing enough
Tomi Engdahl says:
Ethan Winer challenges Paul McGowan to a public debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rB2W0umdq0
In this video I challenge Paul McGowan of PS Audio to debate me publicly about audio fidelity.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Expensive Audiophile Cables Really Do Sound Better!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoVixorZTDM
I’ve been running Audioholics for 20 years and I have a confession to make. Expensive audiophile cables do sound better! My recent research has uncovered that the more you spend on your cables, the better they sound. The theories exotic cable sellers preach appear to be accurate after all….or is it all in the mind/eye of the beholder? Don’t miss the reveal in this must see YouTube video where I confess the truths about expensive audiophile cables and the sonic wonders they offer.
https://www.audioholics.com/trade-shows/2005-consumer-electronics-show-ces/audioholics-unveils-new-cable-technology-the-globTM
Tomi Engdahl says:
Audioholics
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF9cWy6zaWsgdAy-kv2q4VQ
Tomi Engdahl says:
Interconnect Cables
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnMd9L_pwqE
In this video I discuss my testing of various interconnect cables I owned or had purchased for comparison. Very interesting what I discovered, always learning. I’m still testing more cables in search of one that is superior to the Ruby’s, look for a future video about this effort.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Do different speaker cables and interconnects make a difference?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrWQo9rBmiI
I do however believe that the mark up on speaker cables are ridiculous and it’s the most over priced item in the stereo world. I am not saying I agree with it and I am one who will never pay retail price for cables. I am however saying that cables do make a difference. The question of price is a question on speaker cable value and it’s a completely different debate.
Tomi Engdahl says:
The best DIY interconnect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_jkLCyJFPo
Want to build a great sounding interconnect for your high-performance audio system? Paul shows us how and why.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Would you pay $70,000 for these high end speaker cables?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ary7DYmaYk0
If you buy $70k speaker cables your are not an audiophile but an audiofool.
$17k power cable, connected to a $.49 outlet, powered by a run of some $.09 a foot romex…
I can’t believe there are people that spend so much $$$ on cable and zero on room acoustics…. insane..
they believe in the tools, not in the actual situation
Spend less on cables and more on records!
High end cables are the most hilarious thing of hifi .
Thank you for this. Great story, monster cable told you straight up we over charge because some people will buy. Also agree on Klipsch, the best most affordable sounding speakers. There are others slightly better but for massive amounts of money
Unless you have already spent over £50,000 acoustically treating your room, regular Neutrik cables will do just fine. It’s hilarious to see people spending hundreds on cables when their room is an acoustic disaster
Hell, you can do a fantastic job of sound treatment for $500 or less if you DIY. And as you say, that will make an absolutely dramatic difference in basically any room. It frankly amazes me how few people do even the basics in their listening rooms. Some bass traps, some absorbers, and boom, more of an audio upgrade than spending $50 grand in an untreated room.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Outlets for Audio Systems, a comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVBHXSJNTaQ
Clint the audio guy back with another audio tweak for you. Just thought I’d show you some of the differences in AC receptacles, or power outlets. They aren’t all the same!
Tomi Engdahl says:
Changed my Speaker Cables – Very Cheap vs. Budget/Midrange cables.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krxlv15MiLA
I changed my speaker cables from some very cheap cables from the Danish version of “Home Depot” to some silver coated cables from Hi-Fi Klubben in Denmark…. It’s an interesting result.
Video comments:
I don’t think so…
http://consumerist.com/2008/03/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables/
You have to repeat the test. Your cat disturbed the procedure. Cats are very efficient bass traps.
That was actually quite dramatic.
Didn’t expect to hear any difference due to limitations of how it was recorded and YouTube compression as well as replay limitations this end – great result
Of course, if you spent the money for these cables, i know that you will hear a diff. let me tell you if you change a speaker corroded and meantime you install another new one, you can be sure that you will make an audible difference.
To really test properly, you should test with new cable of both types. It’s two years since you stripped off the isolation of the old cables which will build up some resistance as the time goes. But I’m not surprised that it sounds better. The gain in sound vs price goes up fastest in the start, with more diminishing returns as you go up.
I can hear a clear difference in the sound though, but the cables out from the AMP to the speaker isn’t the only thing that matters it’s the power source and signalcables and ofc all other components too. I just spent around 30 euros / meter on a new speaker cable and another 30 euro for a signal cable that is 0.5meters. And i payed about 120 dollars for my powerbrick and powercables into my amp / stereo. Not sure if the speaker and signal cables will pay of yet cuz i haven’t tried them, but man there was a clear difference only from using a better powersupplie so I’m more than convinced!
What i will end up using is QED signal and speaker cables, and then Supra power cables and powerbrick
You sounded dissapointed in the end. Like you wanted the Home Depot cables to win. LOL
Cables are different, the same of turntable cartridges.
A few years ago I bought second hand cables for my speakers 3A MM, The seller came with 3 or 4 pairs of cables. He changed the cables and I listened to the same musical tracks. I chose by ear. I did not know which cable was used. There was a small difference between the different cables. The ones I bought, LAQ, cables are needed in Quebec by a company that also made loudspeakers.
Ok good vid. Also newly made connections sound different. Go to your hifi, unplug and and reconnect all plugs and wires. Listen again and see if it sounds the same- I found this has a large effect.
Most audio engineers agree that decent inexpensive cables will sound about the same as more expensive ones. Capacitive and inductive reactance at audio frequencies is minimal so the skin effect plays little with frequencies between 30HZ to 40KHZ. Good quality end connectors are more important than the makeup of the wire itself. I’ve done similar tests with audio cables and I haven’t been able to tell any significant difference between them. Looking at the audio through a spectrum analyzer also shows little if any difference in the frequency response and distortion of the audio.
Tomi Engdahl says:
What type loudspeaker connector is the best?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEqoXNpl1eE
Should I use bare wires, pins, banana plugs or spades on my loudspeaker cables? A simple question, but is there a simple answer?
Speaker Wire Connection: How to use Banana Plugs, Spade Connectors, Pin Connectors, and more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J-dzPcyb7o
What gauge of speaker wire is best? What kind of connections can I use to connect my speaker to my receiver? In this video, we’ll go through the in’s and out’s of speaker wire
Tomi Engdahl says:
Construct your own Audiophile Power Cable from £15 (no soldering)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfVYfC6tmcc
A quick tutorial on how to construct your own Audiophile Power Lead for as little as £15. I walk you through the process, step by step. It it a lot simpler than you may realise and a worthwhile upgrade from using the generic, freebie IEC cable you get with your equipment.
DISCLAIMER:
All electrical work should ideally be conducted by a qualified electrician. Please understand that you do this at your own risk and A British Audiophile accepts no responsibility for any damage to your equipment resulting in actions you take following watching this video.
Video comments:
Mr Tarun, seems that there still are issues of ground problems in equipment causing noise and hum problems. If this is an issue, it is usually internal of the gear proper in my experience. If there is nothing that can be done by a tech, the method of not connecting the ground on the IEC power connector at the equipment end as you stated in your video is the ticket for all low current draw gear like preamps, tuners, cassette decks and CD players. On the power amp, the shields and ground should be connected on both ends. I’m with you on the color of the conductor insulation rather than the two black conductors numbered one and two as these could more easily be confused if notes taken are not followed. I am unfamiliar with EU wiring other than the standard colors used for mains hot, the neutral wire and ground. Both in EU and the States, the ground wire is green. Not having all conductors hooked up on both ends could potentially end up violating equipment warranty. This may or may not apply, but it is worth mentioning to the viewers if it is applicable. Hope this may help viewers.
Nice video, my recommendation would be a better quality plug as that one is pretty pony, something by MK or Crabtree would be much better, they have a better cable grip and much more effective terminations. Not expensive either.
The cable lengths in the IEC plug are lethal. If the cable clamp slackens off, and the cable gets pulled then the earth cable would be the first to detach. The earth cable should always be the longest one in the plug. That way, the equipment ALWAYS remains earthed. The art is to loop the earth to one side to make it the longest.
You don’t have to have “comfort” to make the power cord , you have two know ( technically ) what you are doing , otherwise DON’T TOUCH IT.
Just a point as a retired electrician you should use a small bit of Earth sleeve on the screen cable to be compliant Plus tape can fall of over time Hope you don’t mind my comment Great video as always Best wishes and kind regards Mike in the U.K.
Gerald Holley yes of course but technically it should still be colour coded green and yellow This is I stress purely from a professional standpoint it’s highly unlikely that the average person will have to justify their work to a governing body such as the NIC you’re heat shrink will be just fine certainly better than tape wishing the very best with kind regards Mike in the U.K.
As for braided grounded shield cable from 2:53 – it has really poor shielding performance relatively to cables with grounded foil as a shield.
I did not do any test to see actual attenuation for noise that comes from outside of cable into the cable, but I saw that such braided shield (on control cable for example) can hardly give 90% attenuation of noise that comes from inside of cable (noise from AC power line) to outside.
The “Lapp” cable looks like generic SY cable to me, which has a braided sheath, not for electrical screening, rather mechanical protection. If it is, the braid is not tinned copper, but steel, which is not a great quality conductor. The open weave and the fact that all the strands are not electrically bonded to one another, so contact resistance is unpredictable and termination is not easy, all means its not a great option for an electrically shielded cable. Also I think the Belden cable is a properly screened/ shielded cable with a complete electrical envelope in the form of a foil with drain wire, that is more easily terminated. Thanks for the video, rolling our own can save a lot of money!
Emphasis on the cable stain relief should always be made, sometimes when fitting thicker cables the self tapper can pull through the strap if over tightened. The cable must be tight, if it does fail on assembly, either the plug is discarded or a new relief strap found. The strain relief is possibly the most important part, and of course tight conductor terminals.
Good that you looked into how to conect the sheald.
In Europa our wall plug we are able to turn it 180° aruond. And we have also 230v and 50hz. so 50% of the time when we plug it into the wall, we either get L or N and or vice versa (the ground is alwas the ground). So it is not that important here and we do not have the fuse in the wall plug that England has either.
Tomi Engdahl says:
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/humrejection.htm
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148477.0
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/choosing-unbalanced-rca-audio-cables-for-home-use-what-really-matters-shielding-directionality-questions.6132/
Please, not this again…
One problem is that things like quantum tunneling, dielectric noise, loss and hysteresis, charge traps, microphonics/vibration sensitivity, change in impedance with bend radius, etc. etc. etc. are all real things — just not applicable to audio consumer systems! Then if you try to argue, the arm-chair scientists and company shills will say they are real and that you just hear them because
Connecting the shield at both ends may or may not cause RFI/EMI problems; it depends upon the components. Lifting the shield at one end, assuming the signal and return conductors are inside the shield (so at least three conductors in the cable), can break a ground loop and reduce sensitivity to EMI/RFI. Depends on the system and environment as to whether that matters. And which end has the ground tied also depends upon the components. By convention I tie at the source assuming the input impedance of the load is much higher (for audio circuits) and thus want the ground tie to have the lowest impedance possible. No way to tell without digging into the component if that is true for a given component.
The other reason I have seen that at least bow to engineering (though again using misapplied for the application) are cables that include some sort of filter network at one end. Then people (Marketing, are they people?
) can argue if it is better to have the filter at the source or load end.
Measurements will show if there is a ground loop or EMI/RFI and if it goes away, and if it matter which end of the cable is connected where. When I am really curious I will measure at source and load with a spectrum analyzer. Usually I just plug it in and see if it works.
Specifically, the need for shielding, and how it should be done. On the JDS Atom thread I referenced in the OP, the existence of directional indicators in signal cables was dismissed by a knowledgeable member as snake oil. It certainly is, if the goal is one of those described in your first paragraph.
But well made shielded audio cables are available for virtually the same cost as un-shielded, and your 2nd paragraph indicates that shielding and which end is grounded may be important. Plug it in and if RF goes away great, if not try reversing the cable is also good advice.
One challenge is that EMI/RFI interference probably always exists to some degree. It may also occur at levels easily measured, well above the SNAD of well designed Amps/Dacs, but not noticed by the user. Eliminating it would probably be far cheaper and more significant than worrying about multi-bit vs delta DAC decoding.
Additional shielding in a home is rarely needed IME — but you never know if you will be the exception. The exceptions I have found are quite varied, from homes near a broadcast transmission tower, to CB/ham enthusiasts (who really needed to clean up their gear), to low-level lines strung or bundled inside conduit with power lines (generally a bad idea and usually against code), to rooms with a dimmer or older HVAC or ‘fridge that spewed RFI around the house. These days a lot of LED lights cause our AM radios to buzz loudly but I have not noticed them ever bothering my stereo (HT) systems. I personally would not pay for extra unless I knew I needed it, but there is no “general” answer beyond “generally” folk do not need an extra shield layer, and it makes cables bulkier and less flexible. If the component is well-designed then it will reject RFI at the inputs and outputs; if not, an extra shield layer may or may not help depending upon how the ground circuit is handled in the component.
I personally shy away from CCA for historical reasons (i.e. I have a bad history with Al and CCA power wiring and a bad experience or two with speaker cables) but it should be fine for audio as long as you go up a gauge or two from the usual (e.g. Russel’s) speaker wire guides.
Sorry, no real answer other than “it depends” – Don
Please, not this again…
One problem is that things like quantum tunneling, dielectric noise, loss and hysteresis, charge traps, microphonics/vibration sensitivity, change in impedance with bend radius, etc. etc. etc. are all real things — just not applicable to audio consumer systems! The if you try to argue, the arm-chair scientists and company shills will say they are real and that you just hear them because
I would like to know if the “audiophile” cables that supposedly address real phenomena/effects (that, however, don’t apply to audio) have ever been tested to see if they even are capable of doing what they claim for an application where said effects are significant in any degree.
Or is it all “double-bs”: not only does it not affect audio, but their cable geometry/materials/etc. aren’t even capable of addressing the effect at the frequencies where it would/could apply?
I have asked this before on other forums, but I am mostly invisible or ignored so I’ve never received replies or comments haha! I am assuming the “solutions” to these problems are complete bull, or we would be reading about these products being applied to NASA, CERN, nuclear power plants, Easy-Bake Ovens, or something other than just expensive audio.
No idea. Some of the cables appear to be pretty standard cables in a fancy wrapper. Some create their own but I sort of doubt they are using some magical new wire spooling/manufacturing machines never seen before. And some of the talk is fancy words for pretty standard construction techniques. There are undoubtedly special techniques used for some cables and custom designs. Audible or technical advantages? I’m from Missouri; show me.
I done some testing of AQ directionality on their interconnects. Nothing turns up.
I connected a pulse generator and a scope to one end of an AQ Tower RCA cable, leaving the other end open.
Do you have a TDR? How long was the cable?
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/shielding-for-rca-interconnects-necessary.105080/
how important is it to shield rca interconnects?
It would allow for a lot more prettier interconnects without the foil braid.
Not very important at all.
I believe most are unshielded. If you are braiding the signal and GND wires together that itself will provide shielding.
Most RF and other nasties that are picked up by an unshielded cable would be outside the audible range anyway.
too many variables for there to be one correct answer.
I use a combination of both unshielded and shielded depending on use and where it routes plus the length and even some fully balanced XLR cables for very long runs where noise and hum pickup has a higher potential.
Anything “pre-amp” should be shielded. Since the amp amplifies any interference it picks up. But if you have a quiet system without it, I wouldn’t worry much.
Anything “pre-amp” should be shielded. Since the amp amplifies any interference it picks up. But if you have a quiet system without it, I wouldn’t worry much.
Actually every single stage after the source “amplifies” and it really is just a matter of degree so in principal the statement is correct : Noise will be amplified by the gain factor along with the audio signal unless canceled out by a balnced design.
But I get by with unshielded cables for all my 1-3 feet connections and have no problems with noise pickup.
Phono cartridges and microphones have the highest gain requirements (X100-X,1000) so low noise pickup is essential but after that the most you will see normally is 20dB (X10) or less (X5 common) so then it comes down to length of run and environment (stray RF) plus proximity to unshielded AC power cords that determines the degree or lack of shielding needed.
BTW-always a real good idea to cross any Ac cables you MUST cross at right angles.Parallel runs will act like antennae to the AC line hum and noise
My assumption is similar, but not quite the same… I had forgotten about the potential for ground loops by having a paired ground setup through dissimilar conductors.
The amount of knoweldge/experience this group has when it comes to empirical (ie – experience rather than bookish) electronics is amazing. I may have an electronics engineering degree, but I don’t get to apply it as much as I would like. Being here really helps refresh them old brain cells and gets me thinking and building again.
RMAA clearly shows the inferiority of unshielded cables. It is next to impossible to get noise and hum free results without coaxial cables.
i think my ears tell an entirely different story and many happy Kimber PBJ (and other far more expensive versions) customers may also disagree.
As with most things “audio’ it is the listening that takes precedence over relying on equipment to tell us what we actually hear.I have an amp pushing 1% distortion that kicks the hell out of another in sonics that is at 0.001 % in the same areas (no global feedback at all so the distortion “figure” is higher but the sonics more pure)).
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://audio.rightmark.org/index_new.shtml
Tomi Engdahl says:
John DeVore goes on a rant about the High End Audio lie that inspired him to start his company
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEcFkSQMc8g
How specifications can be accurate and still be a lie. Some facts about sensitivity.
Welcome to the DeVore Fidelity YouTube Channel.
Video comments:
There is kind of a vicious circle thing happening. As hifi went to more and more solid state amplifiers speaker designers got lazy and built systems with crappy impedance curves because (solid state) amps are virtually voltage amps so since these new amps care less we can be careless and assume constant voltage and infinite current capability.
I’ve always found speaker sensitivity stats confusing and I didn’t understand why it was 2.83v. This explains why my (amateur) measurements of db levels for the amp power always seemed to be off. db @1w would make it easier to work out how much amp power you need for your speakers and room. As a result of this spec change lots of people drive their speakers with underpowered amps.
Many industries do this, audio is a good example. The establishment of ‘standards’ is good for consumers to help make apple to apple product comparisons. Manufacturers don’t want standards for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks for the video, I’m glad you found a motivation to start your own company.
The German DIN standards defined a bunch of nice ways to measure stuff. My personal pet peeve is that speakers/headphones are marketed as, let’s say 5Hz to 45KHz without any dB of deviation. Yes, ffs, it moves at 5Hz you assholes…
See. Rant. I feel it coming…
I remember when Watts spec became PMPO and the power bs then multiplied.
John it’s not often that I watch a video a m d can completely relate to what is being said. In my early speaker design years with musical instrument loudspeakers (Altec, JBL & EV) we were concerned with efficiency. Over the last 20 years of design, sensitivity was what is used to make comparisons when matching drivers in a hi-fi loudspeaker. I came across the same question about the different standards (1W@1M vs 2.83V@11M) and it became clear after getting my hands dirty with Ohms law and Watts law that as long as the impedance was 8 ohms we were good. So I created Excel spreadsheets that helped me translate between the two when matching sensitivities amongst different drivers. Also got into how this effects the use of multiple drivers and acoustic/electronic increases and decreases. To anyone that is serious about designing loudspeakers, your information can’t be emphasized enough. I was working on a design with Madisound and found out the hard way. So pay close attention, John’s information is critically important. Thanks for making this video. I don’t consider it a rant. It’s more a good educational starting point…
Bill Whitlock
6 kuukautta sitten
I think you’ve missed the connections between a few important concepts here. First, as you are no doubt aware, the impedance (Z) of a speaker varies dramatically with frequency (f). A common way to assign a single number is to look at the Z versus f curve and use the first minima that occurs after the resonance peak of the woofer. Power amplifiers are designed to have constant voltage gain versus frequency. Their output voltage (not power) will remain constant despite the varying impedance of the speaker. Driving a loudspeaker at constant power across frequency would result in truly awful response because amplifier output voltage would vary wildly across frequency. Think about a speaker with a “nominal” impedance of 8 Ω (which requires 2.83 V to produce a power of 1 watt). At its bass resonance frequency, its impedance rises to 80 Ω (not untypical). It would now require 8.94 V to produce the same power of 1 watt – but the speaker’s acoustic output would rise 10 dB because the speaker was designed to have flat response with a flat voltage input. It would sound very “tubby” because of the resonant bass peak.
The varying impedance versus frequency of speakers posed a similar problem in measuring the sensitivity of speakers using constant power – measured sensitivity numbers were dependent on frequency (impedance) of the speaker. Plotting sensitivity across frequency produced a curve with little resemblance to the speaker’s actual “frequency response”. Measuring with a constant voltage produces numbers that are far more representative of the way speakers are driven in the real world. Therefore, testing at 2.83 V (equivalent to 1 W at 8 Ω) was adopted as a standard.
You are also likely aware that making the voice-coil length longer than the magnetic gap length in a dynamic loudspeaker is one way to reduce distortion at high cone excursions (low frequencies at high power). This technique has a tradeoff in that it also reduces sensitivity (since a smaller portion of the voice coil is in the magnetic gap). Therefore, speakers capable of high loudness (SPL) at low frequencies tend to be less sensitive. I don’t believe there’s any “conspiracy” to force audiophiles to buy larger and larger power amplifiers. It’s simply one of the complex design tradeoffs in designing speakers. Acoustic suspension (sealed box) speakers generally are less sensitive because of the distortion-reducing voice-coil design as well as losing the added bass output from the vent in a vented box enclosure. It’s also worth noting that the bass roll-off in a sealed-box system is at 12 dB per octave, while that in a vented box is at 24 dB per octave. The former is a 2nd order high-pass filter and the latter a 4th order. Higher order filters always have poorer time-domain (phase) distortion. That explains the audible quality difference at bass frequencies … and one reason I love my old Acoustic Research speakers!
- Bill Whitlock, Life Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society
Ventura, CA
Tomi Engdahl says:
Audiophile or Audio-Fooled? How Good Are Your Ears?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgEjI5PZa78
In this video, we explore the differences between MP3s, WAV, FLAC (lossless), AAC and whether you can tell the difference? or if it even matters? Discussion on mixing, listening, monitors and audion file formats.
Tomi Engdahl says:
PROOF that HIFi Cables work !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=541K7aK8hfE
Tomi Engdahl says:
Audiophile Cable Truths: illustrating what’s happening…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui8sf-7HgIw
Audiophile Cable Truths: Need MORE Proof?
Video comments:
So suddenly a wire is equivalent to a multi turn inductor? No, it isn’t. Why don’t you show the same measurements using actual speaker cables instead?
Congratulations, you’ve discovered mutual inductance. Alert the Nobel Committee. However, it is not comparable to the mutual inductance between parallel conductors. More snake oil from GR-Research.
Everything was fine until you started to talk about cables. No one is questioning mutual inductance between coils with many windings aligned in these different ways, but you cannot just infer from there.
Well, if GR-research makes a claim that it does, he should at least follow that up with research that backs his thesis. He did not. From my background in physics, the situation of a one-ended, open-ended connection of a cable to the antenna-input of a FM receiver and what that receiver sees, has nothing to do with an audio interconnect that uses both wires (signal and ground) and emanates from a very low impedance output stage.
There are follow up videos, and he keeps claiming to have proof, but proof of what? Keeps going down the same rabbit hole.
There is more EMI broadband noise coming in through the power cord that could ever be brought into a stereo by a speaker cord wicking noise into the more sensitive high impedance high gain circuits inside which can alter the sound. Some folks use shorting RCA plugs on the unused inputs of their gear. Now that I can understand.
Why didn’t Danny run the same test with the actual cables? Because there wouldn’t be any difference lol.
Danny, you forgot to “educate” everyone that an inductor is just a piece of wire that has been wound into a looping structure (usually a round coil). The key difference between speaker wire (and any shielding) is that inductor wire is insulated on its ENTIRE LENGTH (except the very ends where you connect the leads). This insulation is the “red” coating that you see on your inductors in the video. Whereas speaker wire, and any shield surround speaker wire is made out of bare-wire that is not insulated so that it can conduct electrons as best as possible (which is the speaker wire and any shieldings job). Comparing an inductor and the physics of its operation to a bulk conductor in open air is very different. Your demo about coupling in inductors is one thing, but then switching horses to speaker wire acting the same way is very misleading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations can show the way.
The inductance of a simple speaker cable is of such a low value that filter attenuation (treble cut ) to the -3db point would I expect be well over 100khz so nothing to worry about.
Oh there is so much to unpack here. You pretend that people think cables don’t matter. You claim that you know which cables sound better.
You are using coils which are not remotely comparable to straight wires. Seriously, not even close. Your woven cable still just has a lot of parallel wires that will still induce on eachother.
And ofcourse; you clai to be able to hear the interference of self-induction in a cable that is only running a few amps max. No, you cannot. Forget it. just forget it.
Does your cable sound different? I’m sure it does!
Does that have anything to do with the principles you tlked about? I seriously doubt it.
Does it sound better? That is 100% up to you.
Can you charge lots of money for your cables? Ofcourse! The are always people who know less about how low-frequency electricity works than you so you can always find people that you can convince with an irrelevant experiment on a youtube video.
hell, I’ve had people offer me stickers to stick on the side of my speaker cabinets to make it sound better. Rocks to put on top of the transformer to “balance it out”. And yes, they all claimed to know exactly how it worked and that it made things sound better.
Don’t talk about science if you’re not going to show the science. Show that your cable makes an AUDIBLE difference in a double-blind test with a hundred people and have them all agree that your cable sounds better. THAT is science.
Proof? You need to find yourself a dictionary buddy! This is nonsense masquerading as sense.
Nice tutorial on inductive coupling…………horrible tutorial on showing cables sound differences. You stated around 10:40 of the video that your speaker cables measure differently and changes the way it sounds yet you show no measurements. You stated in previous videos that the sound differences in cables can’t be measured using conventional means yet you are trying to justify those statements this time by using inductive measurements on coils to do so. So you are in fact saying that for your cables the sound differences and the reasons why they sound different is due to the inductive coupling between the wires or absence of coupling but you don’t show that. Why not take acoustic measurements of the tweeter using your cable vs a conventional two wire speaker cable? Surely the results should show a difference. Not a good way to prove your claims.
I’ve learned far more about human psychology than speaker cables from watching this series. And if you truly want to know if something sounds different, there is the ABX test. They even have software to do this which can randomize the two sample choices (cable A vs. cable B), and give you the results. I think we both know damn well what the results would be when set up correctly: No statistically significant difference. If you want to convince us “flat earthers” (an ironic statement for you to make, to say the least), do a double-blind test. You say listening is the only way, well, than go and listen to the cables, and give us the results. But since you have ulterior motives, that’s not going to happen.
Lets do a simple test. Any amplifier fed with a 10khz square wave at a nominal 5 watts output. A none inductive load resistor. Scope across the load. Test 1 connect the two via 10 feet of normal speaker cable, look at the output. Test 2 same set up but use the super wonderful cable. See which one makes the amplifier ring most?
I was 15 knowing nothing about Science of cables. But I could hear a tone in my speakers that was not part of the music. Having little money at that age and all ready discovered different wires single or multiple strands copper or steel or close or separated using my father’s and grandfather scrap wires in the garage using my ears
and the power meter on the radio signal strength meter I found the best wires for the AM & FM Signal.
So when I noticed the tone not part of the music playing through my speakers when I moved my wires around in the back of the system I finally figured out it was coming from and into the speaker wires being close to other wires or even the aluminum window frame of the window.
That’s when I went back down to the garage to get my grandfathers and my fathers different types of wires and started switching out wires until the noise went away and that’s when I discovered I can hear the difference in musical instruments by switching wires types and materials.
But now at 56 and have a slight case of tinnitus years of working with loud IMPAC hammers and wrenches in a mechanic shop my hearing starts rolling out at 12,000 Hz and totally deaf after 15,000 Hz. But surprisingly in extreme cases I can still hear the difference on really high and very resolving systems cables still make a difference with my bad hearing. In the soundstage and the depth and the resolving revealing of details within the frequency band I can still hear.
But on a big box store high volume cheap system AV receivers under $2000 system I really can no longer hear any difference because the system does not have the ability to magnify the difference.
Some people are lucky they were born without the ability to hear tone difference in here fine details in sound they’re lucky because they don’t have to spend any money on good speakers they don’t have to spend any money on cables or high and systems because they don’t even possess the ability to hear the difference they should consider themselves lucky at not having to spend ungodly amount hour of time and money because they’re basically Deaf to find tones.
The science a 15 year old can even figure out and hear
Hmm, you talk about science, misconstrue the argument and end up being the flat Earther. An inductor is not the same as a straight wire.
Your speaker knowledge is great, don’t keep losing credibility with stuff like this.
I have never seen such a long and detailed video that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the video.
So you think you proved that speaker cables make a difference by playing with the inductors and NOT swapping the speaker cables? That’s like proving a different transmission in your car makes more horsepower by changing the tires. Sorry, this is NOT science.
The principles shown in the video have been known and measured for well over 100 years. That’s why crossover networks use coiled wire and speaker cables run parallel. A simple, definitive test would have been to swap the speaker cables (with an audio amplifier driving them into a proper load impedance) and then watch the scope and listen. I suspect the difference would be so negligible that nobody would be able to see it or hear it. I’d be happy to be proven wrong. You might want to learn some basic electronics before putting your ignorance and lack of manners on full display.
What about the cables in your Hifi components, you need to change all them. Rfi and emi, what a load of bs.
This is part of a 26 page interview of the making of David Gilmour’s Astoria recording studio. David and his team are among many other artists that have discovered that audio cables DO have an ability for their recordings to sound BETTER. And they strived to build the best studio they could. This is just an excerpt, but shows you how seriously legends like Gilmour and company take audio cable. So DJ Madrox, i guess according to you that if my ears are fooling me, well, David Gilmour and his studio team and Steve Hoffman (mastering legend) , Bob Ludwig etc etc have ears made cardboard as well????? You are way too funny….. here is the interview excerpt…
“Absolutely – our one chance to get as good as we could. We underwent a testing program. We
wanted to listen to every type of different connector we were going to use, every cable we were
going to use and also pay attention to the physical aspects of the support of the all the equipment. All
this stuff we had learned had basically come from the high-end hi-fi field, which we’d been trying
out over the years and discovered a lot of that stuff made a difference. Some of it was just different;
some of it was detrimental but some of it was an improvement. So we went though and we listened
to a whole bunch of XLR connectors, we listened to 20 different audio cables, because I needed 23
kilometers of cable to make our own patch bay and rewire everything in the studio… all the outboard
gear and the machinery. We listened to 20 different cables. We directionalized them all first, of
course. Every cable sounds different in a different direction. It’s small, but it sounds different. And
actually, the most amazing thing we discovered was when we listened to our technical earth cables,
which we have going into copper rods in the riverbank. Our technical earth cables are just a heavy
duty, high quality, regular, copper thick-sheathed cable. We’d been recommended to try this multi
strand thinner cable, which had been woven like some of our audio cables.
These are cables for electric?
For earthing, woven to cross individual strands at 90 degrees to each other as much as possible to
help eliminate RF etc. We listened to this, and we ran it straight out the door of the boat, over the
bridge to the copper rods and we did an A-B and listened. Even the technical earth cable, you could
clearly hear the difference from the original earth cable we were using. But even more surprisingly,
we said for a laugh, let’s just turn the cable around the other way and see if we can hear any
directional difference on the technical earth cable. And we couldn’t believe it, but we could.
What was the difference that you heard?
A difference in clarity, I suppose. ”
The same people that think cables don’t make a difference think amplifiers don’t make a difference. When I went from my staple Adcom to Pass labs x150.5 the difference was absolute regardless of cables. Now I do believe some cables are overpriced I do think they make a difference. Its the piping of the system. you would not run a race car intake with piping from autozone!! come on!!
Standard audio measurements would explain,
The only thing wire can effect is overall volume level and frequency response due to its resistance, capacitance and inductance.
An excerpt from a recent REL Acoustics Blog Article: Revisiting Bassline Blue
“Something clearly had to be done, you see we’re not one of those head-in-the-sand audio companies that doesn’t believe that cables make no difference. We’ve known for almost 40 years that for speaker cables, interconnects, HDMI and digital—not to mention a/c–we can hear the benefits when they get it right and the downside when it’s poorly executed. Like it or not, cables matter and the flat earth audio types can complain all they want but they’re simply in denial. But connecting to our impedance environment is unique and this is where conventional cable companies get it wrong.”
I love the idea that every cable has its own sound signature, Because I have experienced it myself. The fact that it exists people that just dont beleive this cable thing is fine with me
But why are those people always looking at these videos about cables in the first place??
Super informative showing DIY folks how sensitive xover elements are and how there is an immediate impact from EM coupling. Would be good to share there’s no difference between an air core inductor and a wire length beside impedance / frequency vs length. Same rudimentary physics involved.
I always go after these guys pushing magic cables. Usually end up being told my system isn’t gold enough to resolve the improvement…. I guess these cables aren’t for everyone. I’ve done the same thing and my system isn’t ridiculously but it isn’t cheap crap. Hok up some basic zip cord toss it out on the floor over some power cords and whatever. System on, nothing playing crank it up and nothing….. These EMI and RF frequencies being picked up by the cable must only effect things while music is playing…. what about the wires inside the speaker cabinet…. if I moved to the Alaskan Klondike can I use regular cables since theres no interferance up there. Probably cost less than Dannys system.
You basically showed how a transformer works and that cable geometry affects magnetic field direction. Nobody winds their speaker cables into coils designed to create a magnetic field. This doesn’t explain why you need to buy 1000s of dollars of speaker cable. By the way, an oscilloscope is an observation and is not equivalent to licking a wire. You are observing the real signal in a visual manner.
I’ m agreeing with David Long about this video. Many of us understand emf interference in regards to inductors as well as parallel conductors and do not dispute what you are saying. However, the issue is the matter of the audible and measurable effects of emi or rfi for the lengths of speaker wire in a typical home environment in which the amp to speaker conductor isn’t running parallel to a high voltage and current carrying cable or an object putting out more than 1 watt of rf. One thing for sure is that the capacitance is increased with woven, braided, or twisted pair which means at certain lengths they act as an ac frequency filter as well as one that rejects interference. Which is a shame when it comes to attempting to connect a phono cartridge to a phono preamp because everything you are talking about becomes extremely important because the signal output from a phono cartridge is at the same level of emi and rfi of a typical home environment. There is no doubt that the speaker cable you are selling is great at rejecting interference and I wish a similar construction could be used as phono interconnects without the increased capacitance being a problem. With all that said I am not rejecting the possibility that speaker cable differences can be heard. However, when it comes to cost I think for most people the extra expense would be of more use when spent on better drivers, baffle design, or crossover components.
Junk science. Can a speaker cable pick up radio frequency or other EMI? Yes, of course it can. Can this interference alter sound from a loudspeaker? Absolutely totally completely 100% impossible in a properly working system. An amplifier/speaker circuit is low impedance. Any interference picked up by the cable will be shunted to ground. The amplifier signal output is a million times stronger than any possible interference.
This is a 100% ridiculously pointless test, it has everything to do with a coil of wire with power flowing through it, I.E. an electro magnet, setting next to a coil of wire connected to a speaker… Everyone that has passed a basic electronics course knows that a magnetic field near a coil wires can generate a current…which is all this test shows, it has nothing to do with speaker cables at all. What you are displaying is EM transference, also known as inductive coupling, not RF…..
I know their are laws governing the geometry of overhead transmission lines because of how they lay in relation to each other, changes the capacity of what they can carry safely and with the least interference. The only difference between them and speaker cables is the voltage they handle and the frequency they operate at when charged. Studios go to great expense to run cables that can carry the necessary bandwidth while being able to reject interference. I have heard great cables compared to standard wire and the difference was like giving the audio a bath. Interference from the airport was rejected by the great cable, while when standard wire was used, the interference was annoying. Both could handle the signal they carried but the one was full of artifacts and had reduced bandwidth. Todays demo showed me, that what would seem insignificant, affected the frequency response and amplitude of the signal greatly. I knew this already as it had been demonstrated to me back in `70 by an engineer from the BBC that taught me the basics. We were using Quad Electrostat`s driven by Quad power amps. The difference was like giving the signal the bath. Look at how a snake that carries microphone signals to the board is configured and the cost of that stuff per meter. I always buy the best I can afford because I amortize that cost over the life expectancy of the item, against the performance I expect. Oh and those Flat Earthers, lovely bunch, I admire their zeal but must add, the water runs deep and cold while the journey lasts a lifetime.
What if the wires are insulated? I have made braided non braided. Could not hear a darn bit of difference. What about the cables in the speaker cabinet? Those should be braided also? Tried both. No difference…so back to my piont. If the wires are insulated does that not reject re re interference? Greatt video on showing how coil orientation matters
Hello Danny, I didn’t care much for Audio Science Review website, especially the followers of ACR (I don’t like conflict) which is why I hardly visited the site.
Audio Science Review is now on YouTube. I really wanted to hate Amir guts, but to my surprise he comes across as a nice well intentioned person and like you tries to bring clarity to us users on the audio product that we love and like to use (can’t fault or hate that).
I think the truth lies somewhere in between the data and measurement and the actually building testing and listening.
Stay safe,
Brian
So it makes sense to arrange the inductors for minimum coupling in a crossover. Thanks for the tip, l will do it.
Even ignoring all the science that both sides will put up to enhance their argument, I don’t think there should even be a debate about whether the cable makes a difference to the sound. Just listen to it. I had a case years ago where I used a different high purity copper cable of similar gauge and length going to each speaker and thought one of the speakers was faulty. Swapped the cables over and thought the other speaker was faulty. Then hooked them both to the left channel on speaker A and speaker B and they sounded nothing like each other. The only difference was the cable. There’s no doubt in my mind that the cable makes a difference. Whether you need to spend $100 a meter or not is a whole different story.
Audiophiles who fall for this crap are audio fools! Mark Twain said it best, “ It’s easier to fool someone than to tell them that they’ve been fooled.”
So at the start of your video you tell everyone to go listen to the difference but yet you don’t do that. Also,ost people aren’t disputing some measurable differences but the issue is they are not audible to the human ear. This is another video that proves nothing. Where is the A/B blind test? All cables have slightly different physical properties but do they make an audible difference to the human ear?
Makes perfect sense.. and is WELL known in the industry to cross your cables, power, signal etc.. Aj Van Den Hul even told me to do that when we were sitting listening to his demo gear. Cant understand why others spend so much effort trying to disprove this..
Still cant find any papers proving anything. Not even from kimber. Lots of talk and marketing BS is all. Amir from AudioScienceReview tested some $2,300 cables from Audioquest and…. they were snake oil. AudioScienceReview has a huge audience now I’m sure somebody will buy a set of these and send them in for testing. We’ll see. All Danny did hear was demonstrate inductance coupling with inductors…. I can do that. Really CAT6a sold core ethernet could be used, much cheaper. Ferrite chokes work well and are cheap, why not use them if this is such a big issue.
Dont need papers.. it is easy to hear the differences.. Hell, one time at a friends meridian system, he just spent 300 dollars on a new synergistic research power cable.
Because without standards and measurements many of these companies like say AUDIOQUEST will keep lying and ripping people off. Its false advertising and its illegal. They will tell customers with any system that this special cable will improve their system. Flat out lie. I read the BS marketing descriptions on all these websites. Its more subconscious persuasion than it is real science. Its also a slap in the face to science and engineering. You say measurements don’t matter but every one of these snake oil companies talk about why their cables are better because premium materials and the science behind it but never show any of it…. and many of them won’t entertain independent testing. If was anything else these guys would be considered con artists. If they can’t quantify or measure the difference some people are hearing then its just in their head.
Kind of strong words about Audioquest… I dont worry about what they say, i will just go and listen to their products IF i want to. I dont take it as a personal insult if they want to describe the benefits of their cables. I trust myself to be able to discern whether it is fairy dust or not. But, if you want standards and measurements for yourself, thats is great. i am only saying, I dont NEED them. There is even a REAL discernable difference between, OHNO cast copper and bog standard copper cables as well. I was at Max Townshends house in england a few years back listening to his gear and he said his isolda cables were just OK.. until he cryoed them and he said “WOW” what a difference. Cryo makes a difference also. You may want to measure it , some of us just want to listen and then decide and be happy. thats all… And saying Audioquest are fraudulent hucksters is a pretty LOW blow….
pun intended
Hard not to when some of their products don’t perform to their advertised specs. AudioScienceReview has already demonstrated 2 of their products failing. I’ve watched a hand full of their audio show demonstrations and read lots of their online marketing. Its like watching or reading promotional material for a time share. Took a marketing class in college, I see what their doing, same ol BS since the 90s thay all do. They invest in marketing partners to hype and push their products. Like the Dragonfly Red, actually tested quite poorly several DACs under $100 easily beat it. But its popular because they pumped some marketing money into that little red cash cow. And how cheap that thing is to produce they probably got their money back 10 fold. I think Audioquest spends more on markering than research and it works. Just ask Bose and Monster….lol. Also the cable market has the highest profit margin in the audio industry.
I think the issue is copper wire from Rat Shack or off the loom at Lowe’s isn’t going to sound HORRIBLE to most people, heck not even to me. It’s actually fairly hard to get HORRIBLE audio nowadays, but there is MUCH BETTER quality audio experiences to be had, if you know how to set your room up, and pick the right equipment. I recently had to grab some 14ga copper wire from Lowes to use an amp that I hadn’t touched in a while and did not have banana plugs on it. The sound was fine, deep and wide soundstage, instrument decay was there, dynamics were as expected, blah blah blah, it sounded fine. I changed amplification and saw improvements across the board, nothing glaringly wrong with the presentation, just an improvement over the previous amplifier (most notable was the control over the woofers so bass was deeper and tighter). Now with the new amp in place I could use my banana plugs again, so in went the Mogami cables which are not terribly expensive, maybe $225 or so for the banana terminated 10 foot pair. I wasn’t expecting much at all, but what I got was a bit more of the top end and overall clarity. In general terms the Lowes cable sounded a tad duller to a degree. I don’t have a problem with etch or brightness in my system, the sound was a tad livelier. Kind of appropriate I think for the difference in cost. Nothing magical or monumental but a tad better. If I hadn’t swapped it out, I doubt I’d ever consider that the sound was lacking. I wasn’t looking for it, I just noticed it. I’m not in the “good enough” crowd in the sense that I’ll go bargain basement on things, I like well constructed devices and materials, so a couple hundred for good speaker cable from a reputable brand made sense, and in the end it actually made a slight DIFFERENCE. There’s a crowd that swears by interconnects and speaker cables made from twisted UTP ethernet cable. I just haven’t had the time (I’ve got plenty of the stuff on a spool) to try that out, but apparently it sounds good. Danny’s implementation seems to be along the same lines but taken to another level. Personally I need to try it out myself, the problem is that I have the room arranged in a way that those snakes would become a trip hazard. Time to finish up some work so I can get some seat time with my rig.
So “noise” can permeate our cable. But how much of that noise is amplified? It should be easy to hear the noise all by itself, if it exists, by turning up the volume on any input. I think you’d have to go up and cup your ear to the drivers to hear the differences in various cable changes. But you’d be unlikely to hear it from a normal listening position with music at midway levels. That last measurement you made with the coils probably represents the real-world levels at which the cable world is splitting hairs. Sure, it’s measureable, but at an almost totally inaudible level.
Labs that I am aware of consider oscilloscope measurements to be objective science. These instruments are not subject to psychological bias or Mr. Wizard Mumbo Jumbo.
Another BIG hint: Identical electrical signals fed into a particular speaker will produce identical sound that leaves the vibrating cones of that speaker.
Yes! Everything matters when it comes to good sound and one should always listen first to find out if something is better or worse.
The big question for me though. Did they already know this about 100 years ago when they made braided cords for telephones?
I’m thinking no, but curious to find out.
for a guy whose entire business model is making speakers sound better and showing us the graphs, it’s hilarious that you can’t show a graph of cables sounding better. Go do an A/B/X blind test and show us the results. Different tracks, different days, one of your cables and one of a $50 dollar pair of good quality 12 gauge twisted teflon coated Monoprice cable.
I’m sure most of the people denying that different cables sound different are BROKE.
Otherwise they’ll just buy a bunch on amazon, try them and send them back but as they’re cheap they can’t even do that and talk about measurements when the test is the best way to know for sure.
As they can’t afford it they like the idea that there is no difference because of “logic”. And most of them are not even scientist. They don’t know what research is not hypothesis.
In Ethernet networks, there is a reason why twisted pair wire (aka UTP) is used
we can agree that cheap cable vs premium cable has sound differences! but the differences are quite small. You should have a premium audio system before there is any point in buying expensive cables !
Tomi Engdahl says:
Audioquest – Garth Powell – Power Cords (English)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBPK2me3BmE
Garth Powell legt uit hoe de nieuwe Audioquest Power Cords werken. Van afscherming tot ground noise dissipation.
These are the shortest explanations I’ve ever heard from Garth, in person or on the phone. Very smart guy and loves what he does and the music it serves.
Interview with Garth Powell – AudioQuest’s Power Cord Extraordinaire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU9otcvl7xU
David Spencer is back with us again, this time interviewing AudioQuest’s Senior Director of Engineering, Garth Powell.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Bitter Sweet Goodbyes to Audioquest for now, look at the HiFi Cables we use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_o3ANEP4MM
Welcome to Pursuit Perfect System in this video we are having a little look at the cable we use in our Reference System and also a look and thanks to Audioquest who have loaned some cables for the last few months.
Tomi Engdahl says:
How a $100,000 Speaker gets made! – Meridian Facility Tour – LG XBOOM Go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUmJwGV1Iq0
Tomi Engdahl says:
Wire Ferrules – BEST Amp Connection – WHEN TO CRIMP!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMFFzpzKhFg
Wire ferrules are a thin copper tube that is tin plated and they really help to clean up our car audio installs and make them more robust. With a wire ferrule we can prevent wires from fraying, we can easily un-install and re-install the wire multiple times without issue, and the wire ferrule securely attaches to the wire in our amplifier or processor. But when do we crimp ferrules and when can we use the amp terminal to crimp them with the set screw? Let’s find out!
Tomi Engdahl says:
AudioQuest vs. Blue Jeans vs. Monster vs. Generic RCA Cable Shootout
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRKIxlO88vk
Tomi Engdahl says:
AudioQuest Details Role of Cables in Power Conditioning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvB-jLZo_Cs
Why is Garth Powell, AudioQuest’s director of power products, beating his chest in this video? Listen as he explains why power conditioning and power cables are so vital in today’s 4K and pending 8K environment.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Room tour: AudioQuest cables for consistency
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kwXUyqnJNg
I use the same audio cables today that I used last year, the year before and the year before that. This video goes a little deeper on the what. The why is obvious: consistency.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Cable myths: reviving the coathanger test
https://www.soundguys.com/cable-myths-reviving-the-coathanger-test-23553/
If you’ve ever shopped at a commission-based big box retailer, you’ve probably had someone try to upsell you on expensive cables, gold-plated interconnects, or even specialty power cables. The notion they’re trying to sell is that spending more on a premium component will somehow improve the performance on your stereo setup by adding a more “valuable” part.
In several review sites, you’ll see many people swearing up and down that different cables will improve or alter your listening experience somehow, but this isn’t strictly true.
The hypothesis
Cables of even low quality should sound little different than expensive ones, so long as the cable can satisfy the requirements of the system using it. If this hypothesis is true, then even a wire coat hanger—made of some of the crappiest-quality metals for carrying a signal (steel, zinc)—should be able to carry a reasonably clean signal. This should be true for two reasons:
Wire that’s thick enough can satisfy the power requirements of the components (impedance issues)
Passive speakers need a lot of juice to drive properly, and therefore any small attenuations from using imperfect conductors wouldn’t make much of a difference
However, I’ll take it a step further: I’m going to hypothesize that very few people if any can tell the difference between high-quality cables and cables consisting of nothing but interconnects and coat hangers. This should be true on low-power line outputs, high-power speaker outputs, and even two-channel cables. I hypothesize that the power levels needed to transmit a signal to modern audio equipment far exceed the level where the difference in cables would matter, provided the gauge of the wire is sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the given system.
If this idea is wrong and I somehow definitively prove the inverse, the worst thing that could happen is I win a million dollars, so this whole experiment is a big win/win for me. If you look at my findings and disagree with my conclusions, please notify the publication in the link so I can collect.
In order to test this, I’ll need:
A collection of high-quality cables with TS terminations (line-level control)
A cable made of coat hangers with TS terminations
A collection of oxygen-free copper (OFC) speaker cables
Coathangers stripped and prepped for use as a regular speaker wire
Seems straightforward enough: the TS cable can be used on a line-output and a powered output, and the stereo cable would work on a set of speakers I have lying around.
For the speaker cables, we took two more coathangers and bent them straight just like the last ones. Just like the TS cable, we heatshrinked each wire, and bound them together with electrical tape. After sanding the zinc off of the termination points and prepping the reference cable to be the exact same length as the coathanger cable, we were ready to go.
The coathanger was unsurprisingly more inconsistent than the cable, but weirdly its max deviation was better than the cable’s max deviation.
A chart showing the consistency of testing a consumer speaker cable.
The speaker cable had a weird issue in the highs, but the consistency was pretty decent otherwise.
Editor’s note: 1dB is significant here as it is considered the “just noticeable difference” threshold for the same frequency sounds (in normal listening volumes) when other sound isn’t present. If one sound is <1dB higher or lower than another sound of the same frequency, you shouldn’t be able to hear the difference. Some contend the number is 3dB for music, but as it is with everything regarding human perception: that number is a moving target.
Yikes. That’s pretty damning. Only at 10kHz does the deviation cross the threshold of audibility, and even then: that’s a very narrow range of sound that will absolutely get lost in music. You will not be able to tell unless you’re a child prodigy and have been trained to know what to look for.
Mono TS cable
In order to see if those deviations came from the room or the cable, let’s look at measurements from a mono-channel TS cable versus our coathanger cable.
Turns out, the cables just do not make an audible difference. Where we found some issues that were potentially audible with the measured response of the speaker, there are none with the cable itself. With noise, impulse response, and practical listening the data all said the same thing: the speaker cable, TS cable, and coathanger cables performed so well as to not make an audible difference from the consumer models, good or bad. We used FLAC music files (24-bit, 96kHz) to put these cables to the test, and still: no change.
But maybe there’s something I missed, and maybe that something could be heard by people.
Subjective results
In order to determine if people could hear the difference between a coathanger and a cable, we posted a poll in an earlier version of this article. We asked readers to listen to ten audio samples—two head-to-head at a time—and rate which ones sounded better than others, or if they were the same. In every single one of the five comparisons, one sample was recorded over a coathanger cable, and the other was recorded with a high-end cable.
On SoundGuys, the “both sound the same” option won every single poll question handily. While we didn’t have a large sample size, it’s more than the 2008 study’s sample set, so I’m happy with this.
122 listeners chose “both sound equally as good” (41.7%)
96 listeners preferred the cable (32.4%)
86 listeners preferred the coathanger (29.5%)
Because no cable beat the null hypothesis that both cables sounded equally as good, we’re confident in asserting that there’s something to that idea.
Unfortunately for those looking for a definitive answer, on our sister site Android Authority: the experiment didn’t quite go as expected. The same exact poll was posted with the same exact samples, and things got a little wonky with a different audience. In the first question, the coathanger crushed both other options with 57.1% of the vote—throwing off our results big time. On the second comparison, the high-end cable very narrowly edged out the coathanger 39.8% to 36.8%. On the third, the coathanger won again, but by a margin of 35.4% to 35%; hardly convincing, and very close to a normal distribution (aka, how a random number generator might vote).
Across all comparisons and samples, the vote broke down like this:
1,456 preferred the coathanger (45.5% with first comparison, 36.2% without)
1,049 preferred the cable (32.8% with first comparison, 37.7% without)
694 chose “both are the same” (21.7% with first comparison, 26.1% without)
What this experiment doesn’t prove
I’m not entirely sure how or why that first coathanger sample was so convincing for Android Authority readers, but I suspect that there might be something that compelled many people to simply choose the first option on the list—perhaps to see the results faster? We’ve seen that before. In any case, all of the other questions fall roughly into line with what we expected to see. We then tested three hypotheses against all the results, and came up with the following:
Few people could reliably tell the difference between a coathanger and a high-end cable: inconclusive
Fewer people prefer the coathanger over the high-end cable: rejected
Fewer people prefer the high-end cable over the coathanger: confirmed
The only hypothesis we were able to confirm was that fewer people would choose the high end cable over the coathanger—and we were unable to confirm the original hypothesis that few people would be reliably able to tell the difference between the two (we should have logged how many people were correct all three times). However, this result is encouraging, because we could change the test design a little bit to add success rates and potentially prove the original hypothesis. Our idea wasn’t disproven, and the only thing we definitively proved is consistent with the idea that high-end cables generally aren’t worth the staggering increase in cost by performance alone.
Of course, I’m not going to sit here and run comparisons like this for every set of cables on the market, because that’s stupid and a waste of time. We’re also not going to entertain endless questions about what equipment we used, or opposing experiences. I don’t doubt many of you have had a wonderful time with certain products, but it wasn’t due to objective performance in all likelihood; it was something else.
We also didn’t prove that you can stick just any old piece of metal into your speakers or audio equipment and it’ll work perfectly. What needs to be stated plainly here is that the only thing this experiment demonstrated was that the use of cables of the correct specifications should not be audibly any different than each other. If you use an appropriate gauge wire, and the proper connectors: you should be golden regardless of how much—or little—you spend on cables. Consequently, you should probably just stick with Monoprice, Mogami, or AmazonBasics for your audio cable needs if you don’t care about how they look.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting cables to match your decor or shelling out for additional features, but be honest with yourself: don’t claim they sound better. If you want braided cables, those are great! If you want something with interconnects and shielding that a tank couldn’t bust: that’s also great! What’s worth your money doesn’t always have to perform better—if you enjoy something the placebo effect is strong enough that you will prefer it.
Why you shouldn’t use coathangers for cables
Of course, none of this deals with the fact that cables—like any other consumer product—will often have side benefits for consumers who want to other assurances. For example, buying a more expensive cable will sometimes net you a lifetime warranty, reinforced terminations, or even being able to be bent (unlike rigid coathangers). There’s absolutely no reason to sit at home and solder up your own network of coathanger cables, because they’re just too unwieldy to use. It’s a lot less effort to just buy a product that’s going to be a lot more easy to use and durable from the get go.
Additionally, you don’t want to be responsible for screwing up your equipment or house if you mess up somewhere and short something. While I trust my skills with a soldering iron, I feel much better knowing that if I do wreck something, it isn’t my fault.
Do speaker cables make a difference and what cables should you buy?
Check your speaker’s and headphones’ specs and buy whatever you want. Chances are near 100% if they meet your system’s requirements, they’ll be functionally perfect, so don’t overthink it.
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://www.quora.com/Audiophiles-Does-the-audio-cable-make-a-difference-in-terms-of-sound-quality
There are people who buy gold plated electrical outlets and 1000$ cables – I call those people idiots.
Cable quality matters, but you have to consider what you are doing, why, and where.
Shielded or Unshielded. Generally in audio signals are too weak to induct into other wires. Generally. Long runs of signal wire in conduit however… that could pick up line hum from an air conditioner or something like that! For short runs that are away from big power it should usually not matter.
For normal signals, like RCA signal level audio and XLR cables in short runs, 3.5mm from a sound card to an amp etc etc – it basically doesn’t matter. Your cheap china made rca cable you got for free will pass electrons exactly as well as any other provided the contacts aren’t super crusty.
For a short run of XLR or guitar pickup – the same. When the XLR starts getting longer, say the run of cable to a stage guitarist things start becoming more important. Resistance begins to matter. Still, pretty much any cable from a decent manufacturer should be fine.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Can expensive audio cables improve the sound of a hi-fi?
Sure, the naysayers “know” cables don’t make a difference, but what if you could prove them wrong?
https://www.cnet.com/news/can-expensive-audio-cables-improve-the-sound-of-a-hi-fi/
Some audiophiles swear that cables can make or break the sound of their hi-fis, while others poo-poo the idea and use the cheapest hardware store wires. The debates have raged for years, but the only way to really know for sure is to try a set of high-end cables in your system. When I sold hi-fis for a living, I convinced a lot of reluctant customers to buy a set of cables, with the promise I’d refund their money if they didn’t hear a difference. The majority of them kept the cables; even some of the most skeptical were convinced. I think cables are important; I use Analysis Plus, AudioQuest, XLO, and Zu Audio cables in my home system.
So if you think audiophiles who buy expensive interconnect, speaker, or digital cables are crazy, but you never actually listened to a carefully chosen set at home, and maybe you’re a tiny bit curious, why not try listening to some cables and decide for yourself?
The Cable Company has been in business for 23 years, and if most people who listened to cables didn’t hear a big enough difference to justify the expense, its business model wouldn’t work. Remember, everybody returns the loaned cables anyway, so it’s not like they just settle for the wires because they’re in the system.
So what’s the catch? There are a few things. First, you pay a 5 percent fee of the retail price of the cables, which is $50 if you went for $1,000 worth of cables. But you would receive a $50 credit toward any Cable Company purchase; you can buy a lot of other stuff besides cables. Another catch: you pay the shipping costs on the loaner products in both directions, but there are no shipping charges for purchased cables. The service offers home trials on more than 60 brands of cable in its $2.5 million library inventory, but not every brand of cable is available for loan. The Cable Company doesn’t offer huge discounts, but it does have a sliding scale discount program for regular customers. The loans are only available to U.S. customers.
If you have a modest system, investing in expensive cables may not be the best way to spend your money. Cables make a difference, but it’s a smaller difference than upgrading speakers, electronics, or turntable systems. If you already have a really good system, cables are the next logical upgrade step.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Do expensive cables/wires REALLY make a difference
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-expensive-cables-wires-really-make-a-difference
Short answer, yes. Even inexpensive cables/interconnects can make a big difference. It’s good to read stuff, but with cables, etc. it’s best to identify what aspects of sound are important to you and what you’d like to improve in your system and use that to choose some cables to try and see what happens. Cables and interconnects tend to sound different in different systems, so it’s kind of a moving target so especially with these components there’s really no substitute to just start auditioning some and find your own way. Don’t rush to judgement — when I swap wires it usually takes a few minutes for them to settle into my system before they sound their best, and that’s assuming they’re fully broken in already. By the way, you won’t find too many audiophiles using Monster Cable. Nuff said.
The good news is you can get very good performance for not a whole lotta $ if you do some research and especially if you buy used or direct from a manufacturer.
Short answer, no. Even expensive cables/interconnects can make no difference. It’s good to read stuff, but with cables, etc. it’s best to identify what aspects of sound are important to you and what you’d like to improve in your system and use that to choose some cables to try and see nothing happen. Cables and interconnects tend to sound different in different imaginations, so it’s kind of a moving target so especially with these components there’s really no substitute to just start auditioning some and find your own way. Don’t rush to judgement — when I swap wires it usually takes a few minutes for them to settle into my system before they sound the same, and that’s assuming they’re fully broken in already. By the way, you won’t find too many audiophiles using Monster Cable. Nuff said.
The good news is you can get very good performance for not a whole lotta $ if you do some research and especially if you buy used or direct from a manufacturer. My analogy with wires is putting cheap tires on a Porsche — it undermines a lot of the potential you paid for when you bought the car. So it is with cables. Oh, and if this isn’t infuriating enough, power cords make no difference too. You can get some good feedback and advice here to help narrow things down if you’re specific with what you’re looking to improve/accomplish, your tastes/preferences in sound and music, and also let us know what other equipment you have, you too can find they make no difference.
Congrats on entering this nutty hobby. Is it too late to return your high-end pieces?
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://hosatech.com/press-release/do-audio-cables-affect-sound-quality/
https://www.ricable.com/en/cavi-standard-cavi-hi-end-differenze/