What annoys me today in marketing and media that too often today then talking on hi-fi, science is replaced by bizarre belief structures and marketing fluff, leading to a decades-long stagnation of the audiophile domain. Science makes progress, pseudo-science doesn’t. Hi-fi world is filled by pseudoscience, dogma and fruitloopery to the extent that it resembles a fundamentalist religion. Loudspeaker performance hasn’t tangibly improved in forty years and vast sums are spent addressing the wrong problems.
Business for Engineers: Marketers Lie article points tout that marketing tells lies — falsehoods — things that serve to convey a false impression. Marketing’s purpose is to determining how the product will be branded, positioned, and sold. It seems that there too many snake oil rubbish products marketed in the name of hifi. It is irritating to watch the stupid people in the world be fooled.
In EEVblog #29 – Audiophile Audiophoolery video David L. Jones (from EEVBlog) cuts loose on the Golden Ear Audiophiles and all their Audiophoolery snake oil rubbish. The information presented in Dave’s unique non-scripted overly enthusiastic style! He’s an enthusiastic chap, but couldn’t agree more with many of the opinions he expressed: Directional cables, thousand dollar IEC power cables, and all that rubbish. Monster Cable gets mostered. Note what he says right at the end: “If you pay ridiculous money for these cable you will hear a difference, but don’t expect your friends to”. If you want to believe, you will.
My points on hifi-nonsense:
One of the tenets of audiophile systems is that they are assembled from components, allegedly so that the user can “choose” the best combination. This is pretty largely a myth. The main advantage of component systems is that the dealer can sell ridiculously expensive cables, hand-knitted by Peruvian virgins and soaked in snake oil, to connect it all up. Say goodbye to the noughties: Yesterday’s hi-fi biz is BUSTED, bro article asks are the days of floorstanders and separates numbered? If traditional two-channel audio does have a future, then it could be as the preserve of high resolution audio. Sony has taken the industry lead in High-Res Audio.
HIFI Cable Humbug and Snake oil etc. blog posting rightly points out that there is too much emphasis placed on spending huge sums of money on HIFI cables. Most of what is written about this subject is complete tripe. HIFI magazines promote myths about the benefits of all sorts of equipment. I am as amazed as the writer that that so called audiophiles and HIFI journalists can be fooled into thinking that very expensive speaker cables etc. improve performance. I generally agree – most of this expensive interconnect cable stuff is just plain overpriced.
I can agree that in analogue interconnect cables there are few cases where better cables can really result in cleaner sound, but usually getting any noticeable difference needs that the one you compare with was very bad yo start with (clearly too thin speaker wires with resistance, interconnect that picks interference etc..) or the equipment in the systems are so that they are overly-sensitive to cable characteristics (generally bad equipment designs can make for example cable capacitance affect 100 times or more than it should). Definitely too much snake oil. Good solid engineering is all that is required (like keep LCR low, Teflon or other good insulation, shielding if required, proper gauge for application and the distance traveled). Geometry is a factor but not in the same sense these yahoos preach and deceive.
In digital interconnect cables story is different than on those analogue interconnect cables. Generally in digital interconnect cables the communication either works, does not work or sometimes work unreliably. The digital cable either gets the bits to the other end or not, it does not magically alter the sound that goes through the cable. You need to have active electronics like digital signal processor to change the tone of the audio signal traveling on the digital cable, cable will just not do that.
But this digital interconnect cables characteristics has not stopped hifi marketers to make very expensive cable products that are marketed with unbelievable claims. Ethernet has come to audio world, so there are hifi Ethernet cables. How about 500 dollar Ethernet cable? That’s ridiculous. And it’s only 1.5 meters. Then how about $10,000 audiophile ethernet cable? Bias your dielectrics with the Dielectric-Bias ethernet cable from AudioQuest: “When insulation is unbiased, it slows down parts of the signal differently, a big problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio.” I see this as complete marketing crap speak. It seems that they’re made for gullible idiots. No professional would EVER waste money on those cables. Audioquest even produces iPhone sync cables in similar price ranges.
HIFI Cable insulators/supports (expensive blocks that keep cables few centimeters off the floor) are a product category I don’t get. They typically claim to offer incredible performance as well as appealing appearance. Conventional cable isolation theory holds that optimal cable performance can be achieved by elevating cables from the floor in an attempt to control vibrations and manage static fields. Typical cable elevators are made from electrically insulating materials such as wood, glass, plastic or ceramics. Most of these products claim superior performance based upon the materials or methods of elevation. I don’t get those claims.
Along with green magic markers on CDs and audio bricks is another item called the wire conditioner. The claim is that unused wires do not sound the same as wires that have been used for a period of time. I don’t get this product category. And I don’t believe claims in the line like “Natural Quartz crystals along with proprietary materials cause a molecular restructuring of the media, which reduces stress, and significantly improves its mechanical, acoustic, electric, and optical characteristics.” All sounds like just pure marketing with no real benefits.
CD no evil, hear no evil. But the key thing about the CD was that it represented an obvious leap from earlier recording media that simply weren’t good enough for delivery of post-produced material to the consumer to one that was. Once you have made that leap, there is no requirement to go further. The 16 bits of CD were effectively extended to 18 bits by the development of noise shaping, which allows over 100dB signal to noise ratio. That falls a bit short of the 140dB maximum range of human hearing, but that has never been a real goal. If you improve the digital media, the sound quality limiting problem became the transducers; the headphones and the speakers.
We need to talk about SPEAKERS: Soz, ‘audiophiles’, only IT will break the sound barrier article says that today’s loudspeakers are nowhere near as good as they could be, due in no small measure to the presence of “traditional” audiophile products. that today’s loudspeakers are nowhere near as good as they could be, due in no small measure to the presence of “traditional” audiophile products. I can agree with this. Loudspeaker performance hasn’t tangibly improved in forty years and vast sums are spent addressing the wrong problems.
We need to talk about SPEAKERS: Soz, ‘audiophiles’, only IT will break the sound barrier article makes good points on design, DSPs and the debunking of traditional hi-fi. Science makes progress, pseudo-science doesn’t. Legacy loudspeakers are omni-directional at low frequencies, but as frequency rises, the radiation becomes more directional until at the highest frequencies the sound only emerges directly forwards. Thus to enjoy the full frequency range, the listener has to sit in the so-called sweet spot. As a result legacy loudspeakers with sweet spots need extensive room treatment to soak up the deficient off-axis sound. New tools that can change speaker system designs in the future are omni-directional speakers and DSP-based room correction. It’s a scenario ripe for “disruption”.
Computers have become an integrated part of many audio setups. Back in the day integrated audio solutions in PCs had trouble earning respect. Ode To Sound Blaster: Are Discrete Audio Cards Still Worth the Investment? posting tells that it’s been 25 years since the first Sound Blaster card was introduced (a pretty remarkable feat considering the diminished reliance on discrete audio in PCs) and many enthusiasts still consider a sound card an essential piece to the PC building puzzle. It seems that in general onboard sound is finally “Good Enough”, and has been “Good Enough” for a long time now. For most users it is hard to justify the high price of special sound card on PC anymore. There are still some PCs with bad sound hardware on motherboard and buttload of cheap USB adapters with very poor performance. However, what if you want the best sound possible, the lowest noise possible, and don’t really game or use the various audio enhancements? You just want a plain-vanilla sound card, but with the highest quality audio (products typically made for music makers). You can find some really good USB solutions that will blow on-board audio out of the water for about $100 or so.
Although solid-state technology overwhelmingly dominates today’s world of electronics, vacuum tubes are holding out in two small but vibrant areas. Some people like the sound of tubes. The Cool Sound of Tubes article says that a commercially viable number of people find that they prefer the sound produced by tubed equipment in three areas: musical-instrument (MI) amplifiers (mainly guitar amps), some processing devices used in recording studios, and a small but growing percentage of high-fidelity equipment at the high end of the audiophile market. Keep those filaments lit, Design your own Vacuum Tube Audio Equipment article claims that vacuum tubes do sound better than transistors (before you hate in the comments check out this scholarly article on the topic). The difficulty is cost; tube gear is very expensive because it uses lots of copper, iron, often point-to-point wired by hand, and requires a heavy metal chassis to support all of these parts. With this high cost and relative simplicity of circuitry (compared to modern electronics) comes good justification for building your own gear. Maybe this is one of the last frontiers of do-it-yourself that is actually worth doing.
1,887 Comments
Tomi Engdahl says:
Comments from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T8BsJT58KE
Anything that does not stand up to rigorous blind testing is snake oil.
Never underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance. I mean, if you spend a few hundred or even a few thousands bucks on something, it surely must be better right?
A double blind test can easily answer the “what is snake oil” question
If it can’t be backed up by “real” science or is relatively inaudible it’s snake oil.
Francis Herrera definitely subjective, but it is down to the knowledge the cable is new and expensive. The audiophile community refuses to take part in blind testing. Totally nuts.
Double blind ABX is the gold standard. Anything short of that is subjective and highly susceptible to placebo.
All of these assumptions could simply be recorded in the space and A/B analysed to know and finally settle for sure. Seems both the industry and the audiophile are more comfortable Not knowing – for this reason perhaps They are both the snake oil in the equation.
Our senses are so flawed. Anyone in science will tell you that you’re senses cannot be trusted. So anything that can’t be empirically measured I consider it snake oil. That being said if you aren’t going broke or taking out loans for it and you think it makes a difference, go for it. The placebo effect is real and powerful. If you think there will be a difference, you will most likely hear a difference. At the same time if you go into it thinking it’s snake oil you will not hear a difference.
Be sceptical and always trust blind A/B tests over non blind ones.
There is a difference between actual and perceived value. So if perceived value of a silver interconnect is higher than the actual value the people will pay more.
I know about double-blind testing. FWIW, I used to teach statistics. There are key requirements for conductiong statistically valid double-blind test, for example, what values to set α and β? What would be the appropriate power & sample size calculation (because they’re different for discrete and continuous data)? And what proportion of “correct” responses that fails to reject the null would be appropriate? What I find from folks espousing double-blind test is they never conduct them, which is ironic, as they are folks that want them. I would also hypothesize they don’t know how to design, conduct and analyze them, as well.
Fuse direction ?? Fuse burn in ? Audible differences in ethernet cable ?
- expensive power cables
- spending thousands on equipment and expecting monumental improvements
- cheap d amplifiers making thousands of watts
- ignoring source quality and room treatment and speaker placement over gear
I liberally apply snake oil to all my cables before each listening session.
It doesn’t change the sound of my system, but my hands are much softer!
Burn-in, super high-res audio, hi-fi transport, thousands of dollars DACs, super expensive speaker cables.
Burn-in actually made a notable difference on my Klipsch RP 600M. Out of the box they weren’t impressive at all. Then they sounded better after 2 months of use.
your brain just adapted )
Sergey Veselik Maybe there’s some of that too.
Let me put it this way:
Amplifiers, turntables, loudspeakers (etc) are designed, built and brought to you based on pure, repeatable science, not faith!
If anything requires faith for you to be “converted”, it’s probably not based on science, and that’s when most snake oil BS comes in.
This is not to say that having faith on anything is bad (far from it), and if you do believe with your heart that lifting the cables from the ground improve your sound and enjoyment of music, please continue to do that by all means.
But call it faith, because no engineer would ever come close to building an working amplifier by using pseudo-science or faith.
That was not the kind of thing that put the man on the moon.
Danko is right!!! The best answer. The disconnect between price and effect of the high-end equipment. When audio starts to take on economics of luxury goods. Also, there was someone pointing out that it is futile to chase the real thing.
There are many things that can help a system that can be explained and should not be expensive but audio marketers sell them at outrageous prices so they become snake oil. Cable risers that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars can be replaced by scrap pieces of wood. Mysterious rocks that sit on top of speakers and other equipment can be replaced by scrap pieces of heavy steel. Most of the time these snake oil items may change the sound but does not make it better.
there is something called auto-suggestion and the price plays a big role in it. if you are shown speakers that cost 100K, you will automatically think they are excellent and divine. and of course, it also relates to an status symbol and since most people are such attention whores, well, that influence them even more. there is money to be extracted and companies fully know how to do it by adding some flux capacitors and zeros to the price
Any body remember the ”Magic clock” from the mid 80′s? Some one claimed a Radio Shack LED clock that sold for a few bucks when plugged in to the same circuit as your audio system would improve the sound. Shortly thereafter a ”special” modded clock was introduced for 10 times the original price. LOL
Yep there is a PS Audio little LED plug-in thing that supposedly does the same thing. Never tried it though. Seems like snake oil but who knows ?
“snake oil” anything that can’t be backed up by science, and remember, there’s no such thing as a “consensus” in science.
Buying gear based on the
“School of popular opinion”
Self imposed snake oil .
I hear differences in most everything – cables, power cords, isolation, cable risers, green pens, etc. I’m willing to pay a “sane” amount for the improvement (I’m a budget audiophile). The snake oil part for me is the ungodly, insane amount of money cables and such sell for when the difference they make is very small – that’s snake oil to me. But if you are rich and that 1% “improvement” matters to you for $5,000 then go for it, but I am not in this camp.
I’m the young emperor of China, I’ve just bought the most amazing technicolour coat, it shimmers in all the colours of the rainbow, it can only be seen by those of highest iq and blessed with wealth…. The coat cost me half the kingdom. But its worth every yuan….
Now I need a really good hifi for my bedroom, anyone here with some good snake oil.
Wow… where to being. I’ll start with cables. I used to believe interconnect cables were mostly snake oil. I’ve changed my opinion because the difference in sound is actually “demonstrable”. I consider something “snake oil” when it can’t be demonstrated to a listener. This is completely differnt from what someone thinks “sounds better”. Better is a subjective opinion and will vary depending on the person being asked.
A good place to start might be to fully accept that price definitely does not equal performance, despite the huge amount of industry suggestion that it does.
Turntables and loudspeakers differences still matter – the rest matter far less than your mood or the placement of the moon.
Most of these guys have age related high frequency hearing loss and are deluding themselves.
The whole concept of “Audiophile” is Snakeoil. It is a concept invented by Hifi Salesmen and high end Audio Equipment manufactuers to create a consumer class, for them to manipulate with praise and derision.
Tomi Engdahl says:
All mixed up with Thomas Edison, analog audio, digital audio, tubes, solid-state and….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0SO1JabURg
The Audiophiliac ponders the long arc of audio history….and highlights an Audiophiliac viewer’s system!
Tomi Engdahl says:
My best test tracks ,and what I am listening for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN8E4pRety4
So the tracks are .
Gravity / Alison Krauss
sweetest decline /. Beth Orton
clever trevor /Ian Dury
take it easy / The eagles
cry me a river /Michael buble
Go your own way /fleetwood Mac
Tomi Engdahl says:
people and high end manufacturers seem to time to time make things up. It is unbelievable what kind of snake oil you can finds as products in even some “reputable” manufacturer sites.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Do SMT parts sound worse than through hole?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJazCWnAmkM
Surface mount technology is everywhere in audio systems, but does it sound good or is through hole better?
Video comments:
The main reason for thru hole parts in low production run products is that it’s easier to assemble by hand. Surface mount is easier for pick-and-place machines to handle. Until recently, getting low-volume pick & place assembly was more expensive than just doing it by hand; now there are several Chinese vendors who will do it at comparable prices (I think it’s a loss-leader for them, and they make it up on the ones that do turn out to become mass-market products).
Electrically, there’s nothing inherently superior about either type until you get into microwave frequencies (which is a whole ‘nuther ball game). Also, not all surface mount caps are tiny; some are actually rather large. And you can mix-and-match on any given board: do the surface mount parts first with a pick-and-place machine, run the board thru the reflow oven, and then stuff the board with thru-hole parts and either run it through a wave soldering machine or hand solder it.
Btw, it’s actually possible to attach a thru hole part to a sufficiently large surface mount pad on a board; you just have to bend the leads of the part to make contact with the pads, and hold the part in place while soldering it down. This is usually only done when trying to repair a board and you don’t have on-hand or can’t get the proper surface mount part.
The performance depends upon the technologies, materials, construction, material stability tolerances and ratings used. All components have secondary and tertiary characteristics that affect their response to varying signals – For example: capacitors have ESR(resistance) and inductance. Even just wires have inductance, resistance and capacitive coupling.
How does “sound” go through a capacitor? On a more serious note, no pun intended, another major advantage of surface mount is low unwanted inductance due to no lead wire length. And the tight circuit packaging surface mount allows for makes high speed and high frequency designs much easier and cheaper, although this does not matter at audio frequencies.
Tomi Engdahl says:
What you should know about audiophile hearing, part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkgRzLygNrU&t=0s
What you should know about audiophile hearing part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD_fwH-2OXk
Tomi Engdahl says:
I am not a believer in specialty cables.
I believe pretty much nothing except what is contained in this article matters when it comes to speaker cables.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/audio-myth-damping-factor-isnt-much-of-a-factor
Tomi Engdahl says:
Which is Better? Gold or Silver (Nickel) Audio Connectors (public)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c69twCBxxU
Lets chat about the differences, advantages and issue with gold vs nickel connectors and when to use which.
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c69twCBxxU
Some points that this video missed:
- Silver reacts with sulfur in the atmosphere to turn black. It doesn’t oxidize under normal circumstances.
- Tin is very good for plating in connectors because it’s soft so it molds to the microscopic imperfections so you have much more contact area. However it suffers from tin pest which means that at low temperatures (13.2 °C and below) it’s atoms rearrange in a way that makes it non-conductive so it’s not great for cold/winter outdoor conditions. Some people mistake this for oxidation.
- Metal conductivity doesn’t matter in plating. The layer is much too thin to impact it. What is more important is corrosion and wear resistance
- Copper is a pain to work with. It doesn’t plate well, doesn’t stick well and oxidizes easily when passing current through it. It’s good for it to be the meat of the wire and not the condom
- Nickel is arguably the best for repeated connection-disconnection. It’s hard, resistant to corrosion, fairly conductive and easy to plate (no really, it will stick to most metal like your ex sticks to your bank account)
Tomi Engdahl says:
It is true that most Balanced connection designs are inherently noisier due to the additional electronics. With transformer balancing you can get noise level somewhat lower but have other issues.
Many equipment that have both balanced and unbalanced inputs the balanced input has double the input impedance compared to unbalanced. But there is variation of input impedaces used on different balanced inputs, typically impedances of 10-20 kohms for line inputs, few kilo-ohms for many mic preamp, 600 ohms for some older gear).
For RCA inputs on many hifi gear the impedance 10 to 47 kohms.
The output impedance of balanced outputs is generally in 50 to 600 ohms range, with modern gear typically in 100 to 200 ohms range.
For unbalanced outputs the output impedance in is typically in 100 ohms to 2000 ohms range (though some can get higher or lower than that).
“However balanced connections do offer superior noise immunity from EMI etc.”
I can agree on this. Better noise immunity (EMI) combined with typically higher nominal signal level on cable means in real life situations less getting added to the signal.
Tomi Engdahl says:
there is a a lot of hogwash around connectors. The typical physical connectors normally when working well (no bad connections and shielded OK) don’t normalky affect sound so much that it would be objectively noticeable.
Unfortunately I can’t completely agree your statement:
“Connectors of any kind cannot affect the sound of your system.”
That might be true in 99% cases with good new connectors, but I have experience where sound has been objectively affected by connector when one connector did not make good contact or was not properly shielded.
“Let your ears dictate what is best and not what do called experts say.”
Do not let your ears and mind be fooled by what snake oil sales experts tell you.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Why stereo systems sound different at night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rflvK06K7_k
It should be no surprise to those that listen that their stereo systems sound different at night than during the day.
Comments:
Our perception of music is highly depending on mood and also what our eyes are seeing. A dark room with our eyes not loading the brain with inputs allows our brain to focus more on the music.
Yes! circadian rhythms and Psychoacoustics!
Yes; one other thing theres been alot of research showing that listening at lower levels with lower background sound allows the brain to magnify the sound more and bring out inner detail. Same reason we evolved to be able to hear predators better at night in the forest/jungle
So true, the Music sounds better when you want to just get into it w a nice stereo system that’s Why I try not to listen to music at work or when its just on. Its better to Wait, it also sounds better when driving to a Event like a concert! or going to meet friends.
It’s human physiology as much as the AC quality.
Tomi Engdahl says:
W3082 – Superflexible Studio Speaker Cables
2.0mm² (Approx.#14AWG) Speaker Cable To Meet XLR Connector Cable Clamp
http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/pure_sound/
Tomi Engdahl says:
Part 2 Hear Sound Loss in Speaker Cable – Part 2 of 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzUUuhHAXrA
Part 2 of 4. Dave Rat has come up with a simple method to hear the loss in speaker cables.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Many datasheets and application notes recommend an output resistor isolate an op amp from a capacitative load for ‘stability.’
The resistor limits the amount of current that the op-amp has to / can sink or source, ensuring that the output transistor/s are never driven into saturation even when the op-amp is charging a completely empty capacitor (which briefly resembles a dead short to ground, which will almost certainly cause saturation).
The effect of the decoupling resistor is as follows: It does not attenuate oscillations – it prevents the start of oscillations. In this case, the keyword again is “loop gain”. Together with the finite output resistance r,out of the opamp the load capacitor C forms a first-order lowpass.
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/991146-behringer-really-bad-everyone-says.html
This is an industry where *everyone*, and I mean *everyone* rips off classic circuit designs, shapes etc, gives them a tweak and calls them their own. A lot like musicians really. Sure – Behringer got caught outright cloning Mackies which was a bit low, let’s face it. But Mackie is not immune from over-hyping products and products with bad sound and production faults. And a lot of musicians pirate software and cover songs without paying royalties … what goes around comes around.
Behringer make some very useful products at a great price, and they are now offering 3 year warranty on stuff. Make your own choices … my personal preference is to buy high end where it counts, and low end where it makes more sense. There are statistics that suggest their faults are not significantly higher than expensive brand names.
Are Behringer products really as bad as everyone says they are?
https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/6bqb18/are_behringer_products_really_as_bad_as_everyone/
Ok, not everyone says that, but many people do. I was looking at some Behringer products and was wondering if they are any good or if it’s worth paying the extra buck for higher-end brands. What are your opinions?
Unpopular facts and some opinions here:
For years Behringer made money by blatantly ripping off existing designs, and manufacturing them at a lesser quality, without having to pay design engineers. They were so successful in doing this that they were able to purchase Midas, a reputable company that was struggling financially. With the prestige of the Midas name and increased quality control, they now manufacture some better products. This doesn’t change the fact that they’re a company founded with disregard for intellectual property, and substandard ethics. Some care about this in purchasing gear. Most don’t.
This whole industry it more or less about people ripping off other designs, both lawfully and unlawfully.
Every plugin is based officially or unofficially on some legendary piece of gear. This is an industry built on the backs of giants that takes inspiration from the past. I for one wouldn’t be able to buy in to the music industry without these brands.
The moral conversation is something else to be had.
Why does Behringer have a bad reputation? Most of their products are quite good in their price range, usually.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Behringer-have-a-bad-reputation-Most-of-their-products-are-quite-good-in-their-price-range-usually
Depends on your definition of “quite good.” The best summary I’ve heard of this brand is “keep Behringer out of your signal path.” The company is known for delivering feature rich products at cheap prices, primarily by copying the design of competitors with cheaper component parts and poor build quality. The signal path statement is a reflection of overall audio quality, you will not see them advertising distortion (THD) specs for their products. This is truly a case of you get what you pay for.
Note that a significant difference between brands and the cost of the their products is their support experience. Behringer advertises a warranty that seems generous on the surface, but which involves terms that are not friendly to consumers, much less professionals. For example, their extended warranty expires if the product is not registered with 90 days after purchase. And after a period of time, the warranty does not cover any lights, displays or moving parts. This bait and switch should serve as a red flag to anyone paying attention that these products are not built to last.
That said, Behringer delivers tremendous value for anyone on a tight budget, or who’s just getting into the game and wants to learn on a disposable solution that covers a lot of features and is functionally equivalent to quality brands. For myself personally, I rather spend a little more for quality and durability. I cringe anytime I encounter a Behringer mixer, amplifier, synth, microphone, speaker, etc. in the signal path. I’m less disturbed when it’s just a controller, where sound quality is not impacted.
Behringer is a great brand for the beginner and budget minded musician. They make stuff that previously was totally unavailable to beginners and lower income musicians. These models are nothing in terms of durability when compared to what they mimic, however, they are grat when compared to the sound or function.
true seasoned pros understand the importance of durability and will spend the extra money they have at their disposal on the original, they also understand that not everyone has that type of cash at their disposal. When I see a Behringer, I don’t think “Ewww knock off!” I think “Man I hope that guy makes it so he can afford the original someday” or “I hope the little guy (the pedal) makes it through the show okay”
Uli Behringer got his start quite a while ago building very high quality studio equipment in Germany. At some point he decided to build copies of other companies’ well respected designs and things definitely went downhill. Examples would be mixers designed after Mackie (already an inexpensive brand) but priced 30% lower.
Recently, though, Behringer has started designing more of their own stuff. Particularly in the synth world they’ve built some innovative and unusual products. The hardware is still typical Chinese build, but then, so is almost every one else now, so not that big a difference.
Interestingly, the mantle of “low cost reproductions of expensive gear” has partly passed to Warm Audio, who are building studio pieces at fractions of the cost of vintage examples, and often 1/2 the cost of modern reproductions.
Behringer makes some decent gear.
I used to DJ and I owned their mixers.. there’s nothing wrong with them at all.. they are just viewed as a low cost generic brand while the others are placed on a pedestal and are more valued. Honestly, you can only go so far with quality.. it all then comes down to price and features which determines the overall value. I guess if you ask professional DJs, they can’t afford equipment failing during a set or it would be a disaster so I guess they would say they only trust certain name brands to never fail and they don’t trust generic brands.
Behringer audio equipment is in big studios. Its considered top flight audio systems by many. Price range is not as important as quality and reproduction of audio. If someone sounds poor and good audio interface can make someone better. Behringer also produces products for Amateur Radio enthusiasts.
Behringer makes very few if any original designs. They are copies of existing designs.
But more importantly, they are made to be extremely low-priced. So things like switches or cases are not made to last forever. The idea is, if it breaks, its cheaper to buy another one than to repair it.
Behringer is a discount brand. They save money by using existing technology as opposed to having their own R&D. As a discount brand, they do not necessarily have the latest and the greatest.
In some cases, they are likely as good as a more expensive brand. Especially when you consider the price savings. However, for those that want the best and are willing to pay for it, Behringer is not on their radar.
Apparently being a discount retailer gives one a bad reputation. Their products are not originals. I do not see that they have a “bad reputation” among those in the know.
They make decent stuff for folks who don’t want to spend everything they got on music gear.
Maybe among people who want the very best, this company has a bad reputation.
Because Behringer is not Pioneer/JBL/Allen and Heath etc. which are industry standards for A/V in smaller forums like clubs or banquet halls. I think Behringer makes a decent product but they price a little too high and the brand is more suited for people who cannot afford the high end gear.
Behringer has made some pretty nice gear, but their budget-priced gear has the spotty reputation it deserves because the actual physical stuff is 2nd and 3rd tier quality. You can get some good sounds out of some of the stuff they make—even great sounds out a few models; but overall, the components from which their gear is made and the physical boards on which electronics are mounted and the housings that cover the units are just plain low-end stuff used for no other reason that to achieve a low price point.
Most of their products are quite good in their price range, usually. Answer: Way back in the beginning of the company, Behringer made the mistake of directly copying a successful product and was sued for doing so and lost.
they’re impossible to service. the pcbs are hard wired together in a very tight space and have to be de-soldered to get access to the caps. it’s not worth the effort on a throw away piece of equipment. if you get five years out of one you’re lucky. toss it and buy another for a hundred bucks.
A2A Question: Why does Behringer have a bad reputation? Most of their products are quite good in their price range, usually.
Answer: Way back in the beginning of the company, Behringer made the mistake of directly copying a successful product and was sued for doing so and lost. They stopped doing that but many people in the audio industry have long memories and won’t let anyone forget that event.
Behringer audio was discovered in 1989 by German Engineer Uli Behringer. The reason for their bad reputation is solely because of their management abilities. However, they do produce good audio and other related products that are also good. Behringer’s management isn’t the best in the commercial world. Saying that, their products are actually good with just a bad rep.
Behringer started out as a respectable brand with good products. Later they started to produce products with a lower price, but also a lower quality. People who were used to the high quality products were put off by this.
I have no idea why they would have a bad reputation. I’ve used a variety of their audio equipment on personal and professional products. The Swiss make decent products and you’re right they are affordable.
Its probably a price-snob-thing. Sony, Bose and Sonos charge a lot more and sound cool. LOL
Behringer has a history of stealing other companies designs sometimes to the point that it was obvious that they had photocopied pc boards and left the original companies name on them.
Another her problem is lack of support for any repair. If the piece is within warranty, it is replaced out of warranty, you are in trouble because no parts are available.
So Behringer products before 4 years ago probably deserved the bad rap. Probably because they used to make “ok” stuff, and proceeded to pull off a massive bait and switch where they unloaded the cheapest (in both quality and price) gear for 20 years. It cannot be changed overnight.
Their reputation has been tarnished due to practices of switching out products for poor quality versions. Yes the price is low but if what you are getting is not up to standard or does not last, what is the true value?
Yes most of there products are ok some not so good & when it comes to spare parts & service manuals just no good what so ever.
Behringer is an extraordinary brand for the fledgling and spending plan disapproved of artist. They make stuff that recently was absolutely inaccessible to novices and lower pay.
Helpless form quality and modest parts. Behringer gear is modest on the grounds that it is constructed inexpensively by Chinese manufacturing plant city laborers utilizing modest segments.
There is a myth that they use poor quality components and they steal the design of originals . That’s why they have a bad reputation in the market though they are cheap.
Depends on your definition of “quite good.” The best summary I’ve heard of this brand is “keep Behringer out of your signal path.” The company is known for delivering feature rich products at cheap prices, primarily by copying the design of competitors with cheaper component parts and poor build quality. The signal path statement is a reflection of overall audio quality, you will not see them advertising distortion (THD) specs for their products. This is truly a case of you get what you pay for.
https://gearspace.com/board/newbie-audio-engineering-production-question-zone/1200668-behringer-products-good-overall.html
Tomi Engdahl says:
The truth behind vinyl records
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulSLbQTMM_w
Is vinyl truly better than digital? Does digital recording compress the sound or is it the opposite? Learn the truth.
Video comments:
Both analog and digital has the potential to sound incredible. It’s a matter of fun factor and personal preference, the way I see it. Just enjoy the music, the reason why all this stuff exists to begin with.
Dear Paul thank you for this excellent video. May I add that since the 80s I started to experience descent HiFi with CDs. I couldn’t go back to vinyl unless I spend a fortune on équipent which I can’t afford.
Agree with you 100%. Especially on the mastering process. That’s what makes the most difference.
Full disclosure Iam a vinyl fan.
However this is one of the best explanations on this topic that I have ever heard. I have equal money invested in my vinyl playback system as into my CD system. ( I have not gotten into streaming as yet). I often prefer the vinyl version when I have both format’s of the same recording.
Bottom line as stated “it depends” on many factors and a blanket statement of one is better than the other is not a scientific approach to this topic!
Best explanation I’ve heard Paul! Thank you for making it very clear…
I really appreciate you being able to let me know about audio quality in very smart and easy way , thank you
The RIAA curve is really just compensation for the way magnetic cartridges work. Since we’re carving a waveform into plastic, we really want the stylus deflection to correspond to dB level across the spectrum. This is pretty much what you get with a ceramic cartridge. But, lathes needed to use a magnetic cutting system and magnetic playback cartridges began to gain popularity as the superior choice. Magnetic systems will produce less and less output as the frequency decreases because they don’t produce a signal representing the amount of deflection, but rather the rate of deflection. Since the rate drops with frequency, the RIAA curve simply makes things flat again.
Analog is the way to listen for collectors and album lovers. It’s a very tangible medium, which adds to the “fun factor.” It certainly doesn’t sound better, but can be fun to listen to for some types of music.
Because vinyl record’s track speed decreases towards the centre, also sound quality decreases towards the centre.
Hot Tip: analog formats can degrade sound too.
Some vinyls are made from masters that were recorded or stored on CD’s. I guess the quality of a vinyl record depends on the master/source, and the equipment used to make the grooves.
How Vinyl Records Are Made
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_OUkLbSs24
Tomi Engdahl says:
- Vinyl : “I sound better than you, I’m warm and emotionnal !”
- Digital : “Yeah yeah grandpa, do you want to talk about dynamic range?”
- Reel-to-Reel….having a seat and a popcorn bucket: “Don”t worry about me guys, keep going on, enjoying the show now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulSLbQTMM_w
Tomi Engdahl says:
AC wiring tips for audio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky7-m2s9dyI
What’s it take to properly wire AC power for high-end audio systems?
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/capacitive-reactance
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/06/musings-audio-cables-summary-non.html
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/xlr-interconnects-is-there-a-difference.9448/page-2
https://www.harmonycentral.com/forums/topic/189611-neutrik-vs-xlr-opinions-from-you-fine-sound-experts-please/
Tomi Engdahl says:
Objective Guide to Op-Amp Rolling – Part 1
https://orchardaudio.com/blog/f/objective-guide-to-op-amp-rolling—part-1
This blog article/post is a deep dive into currently available 8-pin DIP dual op-amps, for those that like to swap op-amps in their designs and/or DIY projects.
The article will compare the performance of well know op-maps in two configurations;
Inverted 6dB gain
Unity gain buffer
The contenders are:
Texas Instruments LME49720
Texas Instruments OPA2134
Texas Instruments LM4562
Texas Instruments LM833
New Japan Radio NJM2742
Analog Devices LT1352
Tomi Engdahl says:
From https://www.facebook.com/groups/DIYAudio/permalink/4389932594405886/
How to measure the power of your amp:
Sine wave 1000hz.
Use resistors as dummy load
2, 4, 8 ohm @ sufficient power.
Bring the level up until you see the clipping on your scope.
Measure the RMS output voltage.
Be aware the amp will heat on. This is not a problem, but on long term your amp will switch of.
Peak power is RMS power x 2
AES power is RMS power x 4
Dynamics: normal pop
20 db dynamics
So your average power to your speakers will be RMS power – 20db.
This is RMS power divided by 100
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://orchardaudio.com/blog/f/how-much-amplifier-power-do-i-need
Tomi Engdahl says:
Floyd Toole – Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&feature=youtu.be
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://wp.neotechcable.com/ic-up-occ-copper-cable/
Tomi Engdahl says:
Audio Hygiene 1: power cables
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lHPjcXhK4c
Why do audiophiles think that the last meter of high quality power cable does make a difference in sound while it is preceded by perhaps hundreds of meters cheap cable in the grid? This question is often asked with an undertone of skepticism. Time for some clarification.
Audio hygiene 2 Power plug polarity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV-ItoWRpQw
In part 2 we remain busy with the power cord. It appears that reversing the power plug can lead to better sound. If all else is done properly too, of course. (English and Dutch subtitles – Nederlands ondertiteld)
Tomi Engdahl says:
Audiophile Vs Pro cables evaluated – Surprising results!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Opv0Zx6Mc
Cables from Mogami, Belden, Van Damme are used in studios all around the world. You can purchase these Pro Audio RCA interconnects for ~£50. Is there any point in spending more on Audiophile cable brands. I compare these 3 Pro Audio brands to my £200 Van Den Hul The First and £800 Chord Company Signature. The results are surprising.
“There might be all types of windows and doors to our perception that we haven’t uncovered yet”
perfect.
Tomi Engdahl says:
Autotransformer followup – Inductance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAOJRjrkwWE
Tomi Engdahl says:
DO Parts MATTER?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8IQ4t1Y1mxo&ab_channel=GR-Research
Tomi Engdahl says:
Walter Jung is widely recognized as an authority in IC op-amp design among other things.
This is what he has had to say on the subject:
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/oldRC/www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.html
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/capacitor-upgrade-in-crossover-is-it-audible.12287/
Tomi Engdahl says:
“man that sells overpriced parts, proclaims that said parts make a big difference”
There’s plenty of proper, peer reviewed papers out there that debunk this nonsense, here’s one https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/aes-paper-digest-audio-capacitors-myth-or-reality.176/
Tomi Engdahl says:
10,000 watts I.L.S.
(If Lightning Strikes)
Tomi Engdahl says:
The somewhat messy and not shielded wiring most propably affects sound more negatively than what you might thought of gained with special wire material.
Transformers affect the sound and not usually in a good way (to my ears but some other people might find sound changes pleasing).
Transformers usually affect the sound in way that varies greatly depending on the input and output impedance of connected other equipment and possibly on signal level as well.
Tomi Engdahl says:
on comparison on two transistors or dozens of components, the best answer is it depends. It depends greatly on the circuit design and also the quality of components. Usually it is not the number of components, but how you use them. Less components does not automatically mean less degraded signal, because going too simple circuit can mean that that it does not perform well at all.
I have built audio circuits with opamps, discrete transistors and transformers. All approaches can perform well on certain conditions, and there are not often simple answer which is best choice…
Tomi Engdahl says:
here is some good reading material on audio trasformers:
Audio Transformers
by Bill Whitlock
https://www.jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Audio-Transformers-Chapter.pdf
Tomi Engdahl says:
typical transformer effects include:
- loss of low frequencies more higher the source impedance
- high frequency changes (attenuation or spiking, phase response changes)
- distortion (at too high or very low signal levels)
- noise pickup (mains humming noise if not well shielded and near mains power transformers etc.)
Tomi Engdahl says:
Is high end audio a niche product?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLhZ6runkGE
Audio stroes are vanishing as well as the quality stereo equipment they once sold.
Tomi Engdahl says:
The most expensive music format (in the world)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KHSz9Gi-II
Is Reel to Reel the new Vinyl? Short answer: No. Long answer: It’s complicated – Press Play.
In this video I’ll be playing pre-recorded tapes from 1957 & 2017 The first half concentrates on the history & background, and the second moves onto the current day and the most expensive pre-recorded music format available for the home.
Tomi Engdahl says:
The potencial problems introduced by transformers are much worse than those introduced by well designed active circuits.
Tomi Engdahl says:
I have not seen any reasonable mechanism described what would generate non-linear signal component in well done proper soldering joint.
If you have “cold joint” or barely making contact failed solder there are mechanisms… I have debugged several distortion problems to bad contacts on soldering joints or connectors.
I quess that avoiding soldering joints idea is based on this kind of flawed “thinking”: I have had (bad) soldering joints that have made sound bad -> all soldering joints are bad for audio -> try to minimize number of them
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DIYAudio/permalink/4502711523127992/
There is no “audio capacitor”.
I see people always using MKP or Polyester capacitors instead of the more common capacitors, even where they are not needed. And in electronics “audio capacitor” means nothing.
In audio electronics, different capacitors have different uses:
MKP / Polyester / Polypropilene -> used in active and passive crossovers, because of their high working voltage, low tolerance and low parameters variation in temperature.
Electrolytics -> used mostly for power supply, better capacitors have better quality factor and lower ESR. Cannot be used for crossovers and filters, due to the high capacitance tolerance and capacitance variation in function of voltage, current and temperature. They CAN be used as input decoupling capacitors of an amplifier: the voltage and the current are so low that the capacitance remains the same and the distortion remains really negligible (on the order of -110db of IMD 11 signals THD); BUT they CANNOT be used as output capacitors of power amplifiers: in addition to the variations in capacitance as a function of current and voltage, there is also a variation in frequency response due to the impedance of the load, and much more distortion added.
NP0 (C0G) or film -> used specifically in amplifiers compensation, where the temperature and parameters variations are crucial for performances.
Other ceramic capacitors -> usable only as input for amplifiers, where the impedance is high. Capacitors with non-NP0 (C0G) dielectrics have been shown to add a large amount of distortion when used as an amplifier compensation. Contrary to popular beliefs, the measurements show that non-NP0 ceramic capacitors have much more distortion than the electrolytic used as decoupling where the signal passes.
Finally, don’t spend money unnecessarily on “special quality” capacitors, they are just a scam. Get good capacitors from official dealers (Mouser, Farnell, RS etc etc), which cost little and respect performance.
Tomi Engdahl says:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/DIYAudio/permalink/4502711523127992/
Discussion
Thank you!
A capacitor is trully a very simple device.
A very tightly round core of a Dielectric Material.
And lots of foils, or Metalized Film dpeending on construction.
The more it’s wound, the higher the capacitance.
The better the Dielectric insulation, the higher the voltage rating.
Today’s capacitor film is so thin and light, but effective, it’s pretty amazing!
“Audio” capacitor is simply a term used to market already very good capacitors. Which is most nowdays.
Many of them just have different casing, but are the same otherwise internally.
If you take apart a capacitor, understand the reason for construction. You can “connect the dots”
I absolutely agree with you.
But this topic is an arena of religions.
And the religion attack turns into fatal war in most of the cases. The religions are blind and those are not the topic of any knowledge.
Tomi Engdahl says:
I would aim for LP at about 0.2 Hz to avoid excessive distortion from coupling capacitors at 20 Hz, and HP at 50 kHz, since I cannot repeatably hear any audible impact from a single pole LP filter at that frequency…
Tomi Engdahl says:
Cyril Bateman’s Capacitor Sound articles
https://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles
Tomi Engdahl says:
Is there any reason for high resolution audio files?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxhvQ-Yp4Gk
If we can’t hear what’s on a high resolution audio file why is it important anyway?
In summary:
– Higher resolution is better — but only when the recording is made properly — and very few are.
– Upsampling from low resolution to high resolution will not and can not be as good as actually recording at the high resolution.
Lastly, sometimes upsampling does make a song sound better (depends on each person’s taste).
Tomi Engdahl says:
From
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DIYAudio/permalink/4501715176560960/
That’s a never ending story… I am shure that it’s clear to everyone that the label, branding, rating or price has no effect on sound quality…
But there are differences on caps for shure – measurable and sometimes, for some people, in some setups, clearly audible too.
In my experience the more simple and pure the topology is, the more audible differences parts can cause! But I am shure that if you listen strongly biased, your results will lead to what ever you are searching for…
Tomi Engdahl says:
Changing the direction of power plug can affect some devices more, some less and in many cases has not had any effect in sound. Claiming that it affects everything is false claim based on my own experiences and tests.
Device earthing ground connection changes can affect sound considerably on same cases and no noticeable effect on other cases. Depends on equipment, system setup, house wiring quality, amount of noise around (rf,electrical fields, magnetic fields, etc..).
Tomi Engdahl says:
Capacitors do make a difference in the sound, it is both measurable and audible. Better caps add to longevity of a piece of audio equipment, as electrolytic caps dry out. IMO don’t go to crazy with buying super expensive audiocaps, just get reasonable stuff from Parts Express.
They make a difference in the sound when they’re bad or if they’re not there at all and you need one. That is all.